:thumbup

 

What a great write up :hail

Thanks for sharing again regarding this issue :thumbup

 

Yep it's not a good thing to do. I learned why in Suzuki!

That little switch dose more than tell the ecu the clutch is in/out.

 

:stupid

Nice bit of research there D :thumbup Just goes to show that if you don't know what your doing just leave it alone, you might just be doing more harm than good.:O

 

... Nice bit of research there D ...

My part is minimal really!
As indicated in initial post, research credit goes to Steve - he's the one from whom I first learned about this.
The data is just additional reinforcer for those still in any doubt.

The Relay is just a simple work-around I provided for the SV guys, so thought that how-to & a reminder again over here might be worthwhile;
the relay solution is just a little different offering from what has gone before (at least to my knowledge).
A solid state switch (transistor) was consideration but most people can handle wiring a relay.

 

Excellent work (as usual).

Does the ECU need the clutch switch input for starting as when you're in neutral it seems to make no difference anyway? :dunno

The ECU still gets the start signal from the starter button (the Y/G wire, ECU input STA) when you press it so it knows you're trying to start it. (Also how it know whether to throw a crank and or cam sensor fault code I gather - i.e gets the start signal, but sees no pulses from the sensors).

Now we need a scope and see what happens when the STA is taken high with a running engine

 

... Does the ECU need the clutch switch input for starting as when you're in neutral it seems to make no difference anyway? :dunno....

I was thinking same thing earlier today - there could be an (effective) 'OR' gate on the clutch or start to enable the same map?
Obviously that would allow the start map to be engaged if the bike was in gear (stalled for example) and clutch pulled to allow it to start.
If it really doesn't matter, the simpler solution is just to clip the wire at the ECM.
But do we know that the start switch actually sets the map or just the function you mentioned?
It is conceivable - and seems intuitive that it might also trigger the start map - but is somewhat speculative until someone can validate - maybe its all on the clutch.
I really don't know. Maybe our hackers can decipher?
So who knows how all the logic is tied in - there may be other subtleties. :confused
So I figured regardless, the relay covers the bases and replicates the original scenarios all round.

 

That mirco switch has a limited life span before the internal contacts get pitted.
It is worth replacing even as soon as 40000 kms as preventative maintenance. ..(fwiw)

 

my TLS doesn't need the clutch pulled to start. It was like that when I bought it.
How can I check which part has been disconnected in mine.
I have two black wires with yellow tracer, coming from the inside of the left switch gear to a two pin black plug. Its just hanging from my bars and is taped up.
Is this bypassing my need to pull in the lever to start? if so, where should it plug into?

 

where should it plug into?

#17

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm...earID/41/Year/2000/ModelID/6341/Model/TL1000S/GroupID/261155/Group/HANDLE_LEVER

 

Thanks TLDV8
Is this likely to be taking anything from my performance?

 

....Is this likely to be taking anything from my performance?

See post #1!

 

yep -its a giant performance hit

Running the neutral or cold map also makes your bike suck...

Maybe somone could make a mod for the Yosh box to reflash the clutch, cold, and neutral maps. Then you could switch between the maps while riding... but that would probabaly make starting harder

 

Update:

In the course of this thread identified (with SteveTLS input) that when the ECM sees the Start and Clutch signals together, it starts the pump run: so if the other suggested bypass option (bridge switch and cut ECM clutch input) is adopted, the pump won't actually re-start until it sees a number of crank revolutions.
So in order to get instant pump run when starter is operated, the relay is the ONLY way to accommodate the exact replication of the intended control scheme when you want to bypass the clutch switch. It may make a difference in starting vs cutting the wire (although it will likely still start ultimately)

I still say, unless you have some real critical need to eliminate pulling in the clutch, easier to just to leave std switch in play!

.

 

:confusedwowee wow wow! just leave it alone. pull in the clutch to start the bike.

 

After checking into this, I have also realised my lever doesn't even have the switch the plug goes into.
Would this be a very noticeable difference, my bike runs great, starts first time, and pulls the front wheel off the floor in first through 3rd.

 

Wow!
Really good info. Thanks for posting it. This saves me the trouble of sourcing a switch to suit my Brembo clutch master cylinder.
Guess what I am doing this weekend... :hail

 

Heres what i have noticed on my bike.
When on cold map, bike running and in gear, When i release the clutch, the rpm's raise with aprox 1000-1500 rpm's.
I think i does this to aid launch of the bike.
But if you do the relaymod, it probably will stay up in the 2500 rpm' area.

Won't that be a problem. Especially with adjusting the idle???

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying OBrian-DK
The relay will only be on while the starter button is actually pressed.
You don't adjust idle with clutch in anyway and neither clutch switch nor relay will be in effect when you do that.

 

video of clutch effect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do2CIMgjiUE

Heres a video of what i'm talking about.
I found out it's only in 2-6 gear it does this and not in 1 gear. So you with a TRE mounted, will have it in any gear.

 

maybee im confusing people, but with no switch on clutch, this build in function on the bike will be lost, won't it???

 

Hmmm, interesting stuff....

My race bike has always taken a good few stabs at the starter button to fire up, I've always put it down to the high compression, but this has got me thinking....

I made a custom wiring loom for mine and did away with all the safety relays/switches etc aswell as the clutch switch.

Obviously with the high compression on my engine is doesn't spin over as fast as stock and I'm wondering if my pump isn't re-priming after the initial power on, the slow engine cranking will not be generating that many crank pulses ? I'm not sure how many pulses it needs to bring the pump back on :O

 

OK - I understand what you're getting at
You don't remove the switch anyway, leave it in place.
Pulling the clutch lever in will still operate the switch.

Understand however that in the video the idle was set artificially high just to illustrate the effect; also the speed was actually dropping when the lever was pulled in, (as opposed to rising when the lever let out)
- it would not normally be set at 2500 rpm so it's not going to 'jump up there'

Interesting point however - I have TRE and can't say I have consciously noticed rpm dropping when I pull in the clutch - I'll test that tomorrow - with TPS at 'zero', it may not have same effect or may just be that with the idle at a normal 1400, it's just not pronounced enough to notice.

But regardless, it's moot point as the OEM operation will be replicated regardless of circumstances.

 

D'Ecosse... no you are wrong.
The video is mine and i have just here today posted it.
My RPM are set "when bike is warm" at 1200 rpm's.

So on my bike the RPM's raise, when i release the clutch. But only on cold map, and remember i have the fast idle on also.

But then again.... can there be something wrong with my bike???
I have earliere ask about problems with the adjusting of fast idle to get up to 2000 rpm's

 

So your starter relay -ve side goes straight to battery -ve Sam?
And the clutch switch input to ECM is left open?
Starter switch still goes to ECM or no?
Certainly be interesting to see if it has an effect in your case.

Unfortunately the timing table in the manual doesn't account for the pump so hard to say either how many pulses or even what frequency needs to be before it turns on.
You can do a quick test by just hooking up a test meter to the pump power line (or conversely the relay pump command) and watch it as you crank the starter to see if/when it changes state.

 

OBrian-DK - the high rpm is undoubtedly because of your fast idle which clearly is not running at 1200! Again, when you are operating the clutch, it's not that you are raising the rpm by releasing it, it's pulling it in that is dropping it. Subtle difference.
When clutch is released, the switch is OPEN - same as relay.
You're looking at it backwards.

 

Sorry for bashing this great tread with cluch relay mod, i'm still trying to understand this.

My bike: TL 1000 S. NO TRE and PC3 at the moment.

When cold:
In neutral gear.
Without fast idle = Rpms 10-1100
With fast idle = 17-1800 (can't get it higher)
Clutch pulled = same
Clutch released = same

In first gear
without fast idle = Rpms 10-1100
with fast idle = 17-1800 (can't get it higher)
Clutch pulled = same
Clutch released = same

In 2-6 gear
without fast idle = Rpms 10-1100
Clutch pulled = same
Clutch released = rpms jumping to 17-1800

with fast idle = 17-1800 (can't get it higher)
Clutch pulled = same
Clutch released = rpms jumping to 24-2500

On warm map:
The idle is 1200 and fast idle 2500-2600
No noticble difference with clutch pulled or not.

Thats why i can't see, what you tell me, about rpm's drop when clutch pulled??
Stupid Q. Can there be some wires crossed on my bike, hence the opposite effect.

 

Your bike is normal.

The phenomenon with the faster idle with clutch out is not primarily caused by the clutch switch - forget about the clutch switch for a moment and just consider the difference between the gears and the cold/hot maps.
It is because of the non-neutral, non-first gear and cold map that rpm is dropping - with clutch 'out' (normal condition for running) the switch is open, not closed. What you are doing by pulling the lever and operating the clutch switch is that you are forcing the ECM to go back (from the gear selected map) to the neutral map. That is why the rpm is dropping off.
This is an important distinction that you are missing - the rpm is dropping when the clutch is pulled in, not that it is rising when you release it.
You are thinking this logic I believe because you obviously start with the clutch pulled in, select a gear, then let it out. You don't see the difference of the new gear selected map immediately when you click into gear, because the clutch switch over-rides it. So condition for clutch lever in, in gear (any) - or not - is the same, because the clutch forces the neutral map. But releasing the clutch lever then removes the clutch switch over-ride and allows the ECM to select the CORRECT map for riding in the corresponding gear.
What you are illustrating is further corroboration of why you should not bridge the clutch switch because then the bike will always be in that restricted mode (same thing you see yourself when you pull lever in)

Also the difference between fast idle rpm of 17/1800 to 24/2500 or 25/2600 is all down to which map the ECM is selecting - neutral or first, or 2-6 or cold vs hot - no clutch switch in the mix at all determining that speed and over-ridden by action of the switch back to the neutral map.

Note that it is actually an advantage on the cold map that the rpm drops lower with the clutch pulled in - makes the gear change easier (and if you have TRE easier to select 1st).

The relay changes none of this behaviour - the normal condition of the relay is that it is open - only when the starter is pressed, the contacts close, replicating the action of the clutch lever switch - to both the starter and the ECM - without actually having to pull the lever.
Leaving the clutch switch in place in conjunction with the relay will mean that the ECM will still respond to the signal from the lever and select the neutral map any time it is pulled in.

I hope that makes sense - I understand the language barrier can not be helping here.

 

Your bike is normal.

The phenomenon with............

.............time it is pulled in.

I hope that makes sense - I understand the language barrier can not be helping here.

:hail Thanks D,Ecosse. Now i got it.
Once again, you guys are great, when it comes to make bike tecniques understandable for us :coocoo "not so nerd'ish" ;-) :devious

can't wait to get that new switch installed.

 

wow. I bridged mine when it failed, i didn't know it could affect the engine's performance. I guess i'll be buying another one...