TLZone Forums banner
1 - 20 of 67 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Howdy All.

Well as the title suggests I will need some assistance from more experienced masterminds (six5, Snowy, Loki, Ring-in, Ted, etc.) in order to pull off some of these electrical mods, so just thought I would get this thread started.


BACKSTORY: Sadly I've reached a point where my steam has all but nearly run out with this bike. As most of you well know, this bike has spent more time in pieces than on the road. Though one thing remains constant- No matter how many things I fix on Clyde the random occurrences of trying to leave work only to be stuck due to a partially charged battery or hard start. I have no friends around here because I'm from another state, so each time I'm forced to have it towed at a cost of $220. Aside from the fees, it's just damn embarrassing to see my neighbors staring at me while I constantly unload a bike that they've seen me spending countless money and time on in my garage. I've finally had enough. I want this damn bike to start on the first try every time until I die or Lucifer comes to pull it back to hell where it came from. (of course, I'd follow it into to hell because I can't be without my TLR lol). I actually just thought about buying another TLR, but something tells me I can't run from these problems. So that's my pity story in a nutshell. I have run the voltage tests in the past and they all checked out, so I know the newish battery holds a charge, and the RR is doing it's job. I likely have a drain somewhere. Probably the headlights. Only mods are the plug n play fan switch & new starter relay connector I got from Brainless.



I have located a few threads here, but sadly I can't understand half of them. I just need to figure out what mod does what and why, as well as what materials I need to purchase. As always I will be taking photos to share with the community throughout the process. I am very interested in the Headlight cut-off mod. The bike starts instantly when my lights are detached. As always, I grateful to the community for all the help you give.


Definitive Charging System Diagnostic & Upgrade Thread
Headlight Cut While Starting Mod
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/frequent-tl-mods/30292-grounding-mod.html
Crappy Suzuki Wiring !




When I said I was nearly out of steam, I meant it. Poor Clyde has sat like this for nearly a month simply because I'm too burnt out to put him back together for the xxx time :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,526 Posts
I'm afraid my take on this is to suggest you strip out all the mods, put it back to standard and put a Lithium battery in it. Whether that is possible now I can't say but my observation is that the more people overcook electrics the less reliable they become.
Maybe pick up some UK switch gear so you can switch the lights off if you really feel the need but with a Lithium in there you won't care.

A few things to consider. WRT killing the lights during startup the lights draw maybe two or three amps. When you push the starter the motor will be pulling 150A or more. +- another couple from the lights isn't going to make that much of a difference unless the battery is weak to start with. Mitigation is the Lithium battery. Lower internal resistance hence better current delivery so you care less about ancillary loads.

The charging mod: Again, the lithiums charge more easily, and faster. The stock charging system is quite capable of keeping one topped up, especially if you use one of the higher end items with the internal balancing circuitry.

Some of the cases where you are off-loading from higher current hot-spots have merit (the large gang connector for example) but generally as soon as you start to splice and dice you are introducing additional points of failure.

Substituting LEDs for the stock halogens reduces the general current draw from the lights and at the same time improves the output. So not only can you see better in the dark you also reduce the effect of the hotspots.

Keep the earth strap clean and tight. Its a big source of problems

My own wiring is totally stock. Over the last 12 years I've had a reg/rec fail, a loose connector on the camshaft position sensor and another on one of the coils but other than that the electrics have been pretty reliable. Every couple of years I do a tour and clean up any corrosion in the connectors. Everything else I leave alone.

Suzuki could have done a better job in places for sure but overall what they made originally was entirely adequate for the job being asked of it. IMO this is one case where if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
IMO this is one case where if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Problem is... something is definitely broken.

I'm afraid my take on this is to suggest you strip out all the mods...
As I stated previously, the only mod I have is the CoolAir Manual Fan switch. Which could in fact be contributing to the random mystery (certainly possible), but I was having this random drain long before I installed it.

A few things to consider. WRT killing the lights during startup the lights draw maybe two or three amps. When you push the starter the motor will be pulling 150A or more. +- another couple from the lights isn't going to make that much of a difference unless the battery is weak to start with...
This is excellent information, however it's based on the assumption that draw/charge is working as designed. Given that my battery sometimes lacks the required juice to start the bike after a 10 hours work day (not always- randomly)an extra couple of amps could make the difference between riding home and being towed.

The charging mod: Again, the lithiums charge more easily, and faster....
Considering my last TLR never had a single starting issue over 3 years using a $40 acid based battery from Wal-Mart I would be seriously hesitant to replace my current $130 high performance AGM battery x2 with a $200+ Lithium battery. Although it sounds much better on paper, it wouldn't solve the underlying problem of something draining my battery over a short timespan.

Some of the cases where you are off-loading from higher current hot-spots have merit (the large gang connector for example) but generally as soon as you start to splice and dice you are introducing additional points of failure.
Good point, however as with the fan switch, I started having drain issues long before I began splicing anything. The previous owner spliced the crap out of the tail section when he did the undertail and integrated blinkers. It was a real mess. I cleaned it all up and put it back to stock as best I could. Far as I can tell nothing else was done prior to my ownership. Definitely an area I should revisit though. For the record I went with LED blinkers. Very low draw.

Substituting LEDs for the stock halogens reduces the general current draw from the lights and at the same time improves the output. So not only can you see better in the dark you also reduce the effect of the hotspots.
Dang.. I just swapped out my OEMs for H4s PUTCO and they were expen

Keep the earth strap clean and tight. Its a big source of problems
No idea what this is :confused Google not baring fruit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,069 Posts
I had the charging mod fitted to my bike when I bought it . I never understood it ,and it gave me constant problems .In the end ,I converted it back to stock (that ,I understand )
Since then ,not a single problem .While testing, it simply unplug the lights .If the wiring is wrong a lithium isn't going to fix it or even help .. If you have STOCK, the answers are all in the MANUAL .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
RE random battery discharge whilst at work........does Clyde have an alarm by chance
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,526 Posts
Good point there Tasi. Josh, what you might try is sticking a meter on the battery with everything turned off. Work your way around disconnecting things and keeping an eye on the voltage. Hopefully you will see a rise when you isolate the affected area.
Include things like the head lights, your new LED indicators, coils and so on. Probably also worth pulling the reg/rec. These can sometimes fail in peculiar ways.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm working on isolating faults now. Will post numbers once I have them. Hopefully I see something drain juice quickly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,052 Posts
Voltage drop will be very hard to notice..... Current draw with the volt/ohm meter in Current mode will be easy to see....

Do you know how to use a volt/ohm/current meter?

I will second the Alarm system issue.... mine died.... and yep... was killing my battery not to mention going off Randomly when i would activate my turn signals, odd timed chirps and flashes....my friends were cracking up... i was not. Subsequently... the alarm was jettisoned and another never refitted.

Second.... if you have another R/R unit to swap and try.... I would. There is a possiblity that the unit is leaking, and without having fancy test equipment, swapping it out is the easiest way to test.

The 'earth strap" is just the chassis ground, or current return path. If there in poor shape. Weird things happen... lots of weird things. Anyhow... just make sure there all nice clean and shiny and tight connections. No corrosion.

on another note..... the Lithium Ion batteries...... yeah... work great...... but i'm not a fan. I've lost my 'steam" to hook up the oscilloscope to my electrical charging system to look at the difference the Lead Acid vs Lithium works... I'm guessing here that the new lithium ion units dont filter ripple enough and may cause so much jitter that it may cause issue with the rectifier to work properly and or put enough ac ripple in the system to cause other issues. I digress.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers :thumbup
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,916 Posts
Similar to Snowy I have a stock wiring system, but with additions.

When I add something I treat it as an additional circuit so I don't splice in anything anywhere.

My HID's run back to the battery and only use the bar switches to turn then on via a relay.
My data recording, Optimate etc all have their own wires to and from where they need to be - non are spliced into the loom.

if I were to add anything to the loom it would be extra earth wires from strategic points to the frame.

Also connect a set of leads to the battery and leave your meter connected - fixed down with tape or in a tank bag so you can monitor it whilst you are out and about.

As for you returning to a drained battery, carry a cheap set of jump leads under your hump to get you started and home. - You only need a good Samaritan then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Josh,

You have some real experts and some real good advice here. I will throw my 2 cents in. Once we hear from the wise one, all of this will be cleared up. :lol

... put a Lithium battery in it.

..Substituting LEDs for the stock halogens...
Pretty much spot on. I know Snowy has been the preacher for lithium batteries and I am a convert. His religious tactics worked. And I have ZERO regrets. Starter motor JUMPS to life when you press the go button. The LEDs nowadays are crazy cheap and crazy bright. They are basically plug and play and pretty much remove the need for the headlight mod.
I know lithium batteries are expensive, but the peace of mind knowing you have one of the best batteries available is a no brainer. I just went several hundred miles away to a friends in another state. Spend the weekend there and flipped the key and fired her right up on Monday morning.

I had the charging mod fitted to my bike when I bought it . I never understood it ,and it gave me constant problems .In the end ,I converted it back to stock
I kind of disagree here. I think the Charge Mod is the de facto mod all TL owners should do (if they stick with OEM bulbs, then doing the Headlight Mod is a must.) Normally the current travels all throughout the loom then finally to its resting place: the large capacitor known as the battery. The charge mod eliminates the long way home... and puts it on a straight path to home. Plus the newest style R/Rs are simply better in all facets. They produce less heat, rectify AC to DC better, etc.

If it is done correctly (proper terminals, good solder points, isolated circuit, good fuse holder) then it is nearly bulletproof... I and others have years of zero problems...

I went from something near 12.8V at idle to nearly 14V, almost like a proper alternator on a car... However done incorrectly it can be a point of failure. My brother's POS scooter was some Honda clone Chinese joke. You think our wiring wasn't up to snuff... :rolleyes

I made my own Charge Mod for his scoot, and he went from 12.2V at idle (and always being stranded) to 13.3V and a nice healthy charged battery at his arrival...

Voltage drop will be very hard to notice..... Current draw with the volt/ohm meter in Current mode will be easy to see....

Do you know how to use a volt/ohm/current meter?
Normally I would say it would be almost undetectable of a drop in voltage. But if it is killing your bike in under a half a day, it should be noticeable. Also be careful measuring amperage because if you find a really hot spot, you can destroy your meter since most aren't rated for big current.

Once you find the area that is causing a drain, jumper each wire one by one to see if you can isolate the exact cause. Then hopefully it is something as simple as a wire rubbed bare. The plug near the front forks gets wiggled quite a bit and has been known to rub bare... Mine did on my S. Luckily mine was on the switch side and not the loom side. Got a new switch and rerouted the path through the frame...

if I were to add anything to the loom it would be extra earth wires from strategic points to the frame.

As for you returning to a drained battery, carry a cheap set of jump leads under your hump to get you started and home. - You only need a good Samaritan then.
The extra ground point is a GREAT idea. I soldered one where the gang crimp is just behind the R/R on the OEM loom. Then ran that to the main chassis ground. Giving it a fast clean path to ground.
You could also carry one of those small lithium jumper packs. Then you don't even need a good Samaritan.

Just my opinions.

Damn it, where is Six5 to tell us all the answers!! :rotfl
 

·
Registered
1998 TLS; 2001 TLR; 200X TLRSF
Joined
·
4,509 Posts
Josh,
You have some real experts and some real good advice here. I will throw my 2 cents in. ...
:stupid

Plenty of old timers posting advice gained from years of experience with their TL(s). Josh is in good hands to accomplish what he has set out to do - but he will have a few decisions to make. :devious



Just my opinions.

.... where is Six5 to tell us all the answers!!
rxf610, I don't have all the answers. However, like you, I have opinions, some of which I have developed confidence in over the years.

It's no secret that I am a proponent of the Charging Mod. It solved my battery and charging issues that I dealt with for years (of course, I didn't know what to look for before I came to these forums). That mod has also essentially proved to be maintenance-free and bullet-proof since its installation on both of my TLs - with the exception of a failed fuse holder on the R. Even so, I don't live in the UK. :dowhat Therefore, I am quite impressed to hear of snowblind's and Ted's good experience with the OEM charging system. If it is working for them, Great! However, I suspect much of the credit goes to their top tier maintenance routines. The UK and Eastern US climates are tough on any exposed electrical components, so a rider is forced to keep up on the electrics to maintain a roadworthy machine. They, and others like them, are to be commended for rolling these dinosaurs down the road year after year. In that regard, I am very spoiled (and probably negligent at times :coocoo) in this arid habitat of southwestern USA.


...I know Snowy has been the preacher for lithium batteries and I am a convert. His religious tactics worked. And I have ZERO regrets. Starter motor JUMPS to life when you press the go button. The LEDs nowadays are crazy cheap and crazy bright. They are basically plug and play and pretty much remove the need for the headlight mod.
...
I concur. While I am currently running lithiums in both bikes, I don't think snowy was quite 'on the pulpit' yet when I decided to convert the TLS with a Ballistic. I would have to research the dates and compare to his posts. :laugh Still, they have proven to be good upgrades. The TLR has a Shorai in it. While, in my case, the R cranks stronger than the S, I suspect the battery is not the cause, but rather the cables or the starter motor itself. Something else to investigate.....:banghead

I can't really speak on the LED headlights, but they are getting good reviews and the load current is much less, so that is a big plus for the loom. :)



...I think the Charge Mod is the de facto mod all TL owners should do (if they stick with OEM bulbs, then doing the Headlight Mod is a must.) Normally the current travels all throughout the loom then finally to its resting place: the large capacitor known as the battery. The charge mod eliminates the long way home... and puts it on a straight path to home. Plus the newest style R/Rs are simply better in all facets. They produce less heat, rectify AC to DC better, etc.

If it is done correctly (proper terminals, good solder points, isolated circuit, good fuse holder) then it is nearly bulletproof... I and others have years of zero problems...
+1
Creatively expressed.


Josh, it appears that you are on the road isolating the battery drain gremlin. Looking forward to what you find. :eatcorn
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am at work, so I cannot fully express how grateful I am to everyone for their feedback. My current course of action will be to take bits and pieces from everyone and hopefully get myself where I need to be.


connect a set of leads to the battery and leave your meter connected - fixed down with tape or in a tank bag so you can monitor it whilst you are out and about..
This is a good idea. I'm riding the bike around naked with wires hanging out all over the place via zip-ties, so the inclusion of a VOM taped to the frame isn't going to hurt my pimp-status much lol

Substituting LEDs for the stock halogens reduces the general current draw from the lights and at the same time improves the output...
In combination with what Ted said about creating more splices into the loom, I've decided to toss out the H4s for the LEDs rather than do the light-cutoff mod. And also per your advice I have disconnected the fan switch mod (which is my only electrical mod... no alarm). I will look into a Lithium battery as well.

I think the Charge Mod is the de facto mod all TL owners should do... The charge mod eliminates the long way home... Plus the newest style R/Rs are simply better in all facets.... You could also carry one of those small lithium jumper packs. Then you don't even need a good Samaritan...
Although my numbers at idle and under throttle are consistent with where they need to be, I like the sound of bypassing as much of the stock loom as possible. In my case, more voltage is always welcome. I will research the forum threads for the best aftermarket R/R to replace my stock. Also, I actually did purchase one of those small jump packs some time ago. I shit you not, I keep it in the hump every time and nothing happens. I only ever seem to take it out the day I need it. Plus, if I recall, the one time I did use it there was enough kick to start a TLR. Starts my truck wonderfully though :)

I swapped out my old R/R for a newer style one. You are welcome to the old one, if you need it. I don't guarantee it though.
Thank you, but I think I've been convinced into going with an aftermarket flavor.



Again, there is a lot more information here for me to digest, so I couldn't note everything in this reply. I appreciate everyone's time on this. I will keep you posted :thumbup
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Josh,

For the charge mod and new R/R. You need 3 key parts.

1. Triumph Part Number: T2500676 <=== cheap and super high quality
2. Shindengen R/R SH775 <==== newest R/R. They are part number : 710001103 on newer Polaris' and Can-Am's. I bought mine used offline, but made sure it had the correct markings (not a Chinese copy). But you can get them new too.
3. A good quality fuse holder

The link lead can be seen here as well as the newer style R/R connection.


Below is just one example of why the OEM loom needs help.



Three things to note / do with the wiring here.
1. That large gang crimp is were I attached my secondary ground. I got a nice fat piece of copper wiring, wrapped it around and through the exposed copper, then soldered it in. I then ran it to the main engine block ground by the front sprocket. Brass wire brush the case really good and the stock ground, then bolt them all together.
2. That dangling plug labeled "To Battery - ". That is a common point of resistance and can be deleted. You can take its friend on the battery side and solder them together directly, then heatshrink the area. The plug itself is useless.
3. When you do the Charge Mod and since you will have those wires for the OEM R/R exposed you can do one of three things... The OEM R/R plug connector will now be unused. You can either tie that into the Charge Mod wiring (which some have done), isolate it and tape it up (it will still be live), or as I did, simply follow it back to those gang crimps and cut it out entirely (reducing the complexity of your system).

Here is a good write up to the procedure from Steve's site.

http://wotid.com/tls/content/view/53/60/

You will follow along basically the same except you will use the link lead, which has the water tight connectors for the R/R ready to go. I unwrapped the black tape, then broke open the gang crimp under the positive and negative side. You will then have 2 MONSTER leads to work with for the charge mod. The Stator side plug on the link lead you can actually use a needle or mini mini flat head and pop out the blades from the newer style plug and pop off the corresponding plug on the OEM R/R and then insert the male ends into the OEM plug. The male blades clip and lock right into the old plug, which then will plug directly into the OEM stator plug on the loom. The order is not important and they can be inserted in any order, since it is AC.

Any questions, just ask...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Nice :thumbup
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
For the life of me I cannot get this battery to drain :confused

I charged it up and it held constant at 12.7v for two days. I reattached the fan mod and left it in the on position, but still the battery remained charged at 12.7.

Key off = 12.7
Key on / Fan off = 11.9
Key on / Fan on = 11.8
Bike on / idle = 12.5
Bike on / 5k RPM / Fan off = 13.6
Bike on / 5k RPM / Fan on = 13.1
Bike on / idle / fan removed = 12.6
Bike on / 5k RPM / fan removed = 13.5
Key off = 12.7
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
For the life of me I cannot get this battery to drain...


Bike on / idle = 12.5
I could.... :rotfl

Go fill your tank, start it, run it at idle (maybe zip tie your brake lever too... to keep those brake lights on :lol )... See if it runs out of gas or drains the battery first...

That number is indicative of your weak charging system...

I am getting something like 13.8V at idle... You are DIScharging your battery at idle...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,526 Posts
Hmm. Rfx - 13.8 at idle is about as high as you'd want. What's it do at 5k rpm? Anything over 14.5 and you are creeping into battery toasting territory. Agreed 12.5 is borderline though.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ok you guys are going to think Clyde is bipolar, but your comments prompted me to run the tests again, and this time I got opposite results.

Idle 1100 RPM / Fan off = 13.4v
Idle 1100 RPM / Fan on = 12.5v
5500 RPM / Fan off = 13.1v

It's actually charging less at higher RPMs. I also noticed the lights dim when I turn the fans on. While not conclusive, I'm wondering if running the bike with the fan on is what caused the battery not to charge enough, if at all? I wish I could remember if I had it on the days I didn't have enough juice to start the bike? I can't recall. Mind you my battery was never dead, just low enough so the bike couldn't get its customary three attempts required to start. As we all know, a TLR needs every ounce of a fully charged battery to crank over.


I guess the only thing I can do for now is pull the fan mod and hope it was the culprit. Once the parts Rfx listed come in I'll do the charging mod. If it still dies after that I'll get a top of the line Lithium battery. If it dies after that... well... in 100% honesty if it still gives me issues I'll drain the fluids, clean it to a showroom shine, park it as a collectors item, and buy the MV Agusta I've always wanted.
 

·
Registered
1998 TLS; 2001 TLR; 200X TLRSF
Joined
·
4,509 Posts
....
It's actually charging less at higher RPMs. I also noticed the lights dim when I turn the fans on. ..... caused the battery not to charge enough, if at all? I wish I could remember if I had it on the days I didn't have enough juice to start the bike? I can't recall. Mind you my battery was never dead, just low enough so the bike couldn't get its customary three attempts required to start. As we all know, a TLR needs every ounce of a fully charged battery to crank over.
The symptoms you are experiencing are typical for an old TL OEM charging circuit. Just as you noted, the battery does not charge sufficiently while running in the rev range where the engine is happy while commuting. We discussed the reasons for this effect in your thread linked below (particularly toward the end of post #8).

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/help-f...-tl1000r-charge-dead-battery-once-jumped.html

Interestingly, The Ring-In and Snowblind also surmised in the same thread that your battery was suffering from being under-charged.

This condition makes for lazy cranking, weak ignition spark, hard starting, and short battery life.

While my TLS has always been an "easy starter," this same battery condition plagued it for years until I learned the fix on this forum. :)


I guess the only thing I can do for now is pull the fan mod and hope it was the culprit. .......
IMO, The manual fan switch mod is not the problem.

However, I recommend that you still buy the MV Agusta. Then you would have TWO very cool bikes. :devious
 
1 - 20 of 67 Posts
Top