Unlocked, locked, unlocked!!!!

4814 Views 52 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Felipe, Dec 5, 2013

Felipe

Discussion Starter · Nov 22, 2013

So this morning I finally got a wrench on my crank and I got her unlocked. It ulocked pretty easy. It immediatly started turning offer smoothly and building compression like normal so I put her all back together, fill her up with oil and fire it up. It turned over a few times, fired a couple of times and locked up again. I pulled it back apart and put the wrench on it again and it freed right back up. I can turn it over all day with a wrench but as soon as I hit the starter it wants to lock up. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Ring wasn't right about the starter clutch or flywheel clutch or whatever. It seems to free up easier when it turn the crank counter clockwise which spins the starter. So how would I go about checking that? Would pulling the starter prevent it from locking if it is the starter clutch? I know piling the cover and removing the starter gears would be the proper way to diagnose but if I can diagnose it by removing the starter that would be easier but you guys are the pro's. I'll do whatever you recommend.

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The Ring-In

· #2 · Nov 22, 2013

run it til it locks

remove the stator cover and remove the shafts that hold the gear train in place.

remove the gears

try to move the crank (17mm)

if its the starter or gears it will turn .

Reactions: 1

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #3 · Nov 22, 2013

Also, I haven't got it to start and stay running. I put oil in the cylinders and it has yet to burn it all up but it does fire up and run for several seconds at a time and it seems to be running smooth with no knocking, tapping, pinging, grinding, or making any other strange noises. Every time it stalls out I have to drain it and pull the cover, unlock it and try again. I'm starting to get my hopes up that perhaps it's not destroyed after all. It will not turn over more than a couple of dozen times before it locks back up. To free it up all I have to do is turn the crank about a 1/4 turn in either direction and it's turning smooth as glass again. It's building good compression and turning over just as you would expect it to. I can turn it over dozens of times with a wrench and it turns over just as it should but I soon as I hit the starter it soon locks up again. It's the damdest thing I've ever seen.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #4 · Nov 22, 2013

The Ring-In said:
run it til it locks

remove the stator cover and remove the shafts that hold the gear train in place.

remove the gears

try to move the crank (17mm)

if its the starter or gears it will turn .

Alright brother, I'm gonna do that here in just a minute. Thanks for the help.

Six5

· #5 · Nov 23, 2013

Felipe said:
..... Every time it stalls out I have to drain it and pull the cover, unlock it and try again. ...

Why drain it and pull the cover? :confused Just remove the stator bolt access plug on the stator cover and turn the engine with a 17mm socket.

Felipe said:
.....
It will not turn over more than a couple of dozen times before it locks back up.

To free it up all I have to do is turn the crank about a 1/4 turn in either direction and it's turning smooth as glass again. [/qoote]

I really doubt that it is actually locking up at all.

My guess: There is something wrong with the starter circuit. When you crank it, something is over heating electrically and it opens the circuit. Then the engine stops turning abruptly - appearing to 'lock up.' I would suspect the starter relay first, then the starter motor.

Felipe said:

.....
It's building good compression and turning over just as you would expect it to. I can turn it over dozens of times with a wrench and it turns over just as it should but I soon as I hit the starter it soon locks up again. It's the damdest thing I've ever seen.

Click to expand...

Exactly.
The engine is fine. The starter circuit is not.

Put a meter on the starter motor terminal and watch what happens to the voltage when the engine stops turning while you are cranking it over.

The Ring-In

· #6 · Nov 23, 2013

no six theres more to it.

it starts then locks

at this point the starter is no longer part of the deal

the gear train is but it shouldn't be cos its a one way clutch

I dont know if the oil pump gear was checked yet.....

but this is an elimination process.

I actually believe the crank is picking up.

if the oil pump gear is broken missing or damaged it would explain it( the clcutch was removed by a shop )

but first we need to isolate the external stuff

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Six5

· #7 · Nov 23, 2013

The Ring-In said:
no six theres more to it.

it starts then locks
...

Throughout the myriad of posts and threads on this failure, I have yet to see a direct claim that it "locked up" while it was running normally (stalled, yes. locked, no) - aside from the initial claim that it locked up on the original owner when it was ridden after the work done by the shop. Perhaps I just glazed over.

I'm not giving up on my theory just yet, but I'm happy to wait to see what becomes of this.

The Ring-In said:
.....
I dont know if the oil pump gear was checked yet.....

.....

if the oil pump gear is broken missing or damaged it would explain it (the clutch was removed by a shop )

but first we need to isolate the external stuff

Agreed. The oil pump gear could the the problem.

We'll see how this pans out.

Carry on.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #8 · Nov 23, 2013

Well from what I can tell it's not the starter or anything associated with it. I pull the starter gear and everything associated with it and it was still locked. @ six5, it has not locked up on me while runing normally but the previous owner told me he was doing about 40mph when it locked up on him. I'll describe what I'm calling "locked up". When it starts, it runs for a few seconds and then grinds to a hault abruptly. The starter won't budge it. I then have to put the 36mm socket back on the crank with a breaker bar. There is no way I can turn it by hand. It will then free right back up and it can be turned with a wrench by hand no problem even thru the compression strokes. It feels really smooth and springy when it's free if you know what I mean. I did look at the oil pump sprocket. It is turning and it looks fine. Perhaps it's not pumping tho. Perhaps they screwed up the valve adjustment and that's causing it, idk. I did think about just piping off the little access grommet and turning the crank, I'm just scared I'm gonna sheer the bolt off. Sometimes it takes a good bit of pressure to unlock it. I'll honest guys, I'm at a total loss. I really do appreciate you guys helping me out. It means more to me than you'll ever know. ........... Perhaps I should check and see if I'm getting any oil pressure? What do u think? How would u recommend I do that?

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Felipe

Discussion Starter · #9 · Nov 23, 2013

Btw, when I first got it unlocked yesterday I did turn it over many times before I put the plugs back in and then I turned it over some more with the plugs in before I attempted to run it. If the oil pump is pumping then the oil should be pretty well circulated. Also it doesn't have to start to seize up. I can turn it over and that alone can seize it back up.

The Ring-In

· #10 · Nov 23, 2013

you are right actual oil pressure is the next test.

removing the oil pressure switch and winding over the motor with the starter without starting the bike should show oil flow from the hole.

next install a gauge and check the actual pressure .

can you record the engine noise while it does run too.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 24, 2013

The Ring-In said:
you are right actual oil pressure is the next test.

removing the oil pressure switch and winding over the motor with the starter without starting the bike should show oil flow from the hole.

next install a gauge and check the actual pressure

can you record the engine noise while it does run too.

Yeah, I can record it. I'll get my ol lady to record a video next time I start it. I put it all back together and I'm going to try using the access hole to the flywheel to unlock it next time it freezes. What size Allen wrench do I need? I'll pull the oil pressure switch and let you know I find out. Thanks again.

The Ring-In

· #12 · Nov 24, 2013

10mm

better u use the 36mm on the front sprocket.

the bung strips VERY easily and is usually super tight.

if it puts up a fight abandon it.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #13 · Nov 24, 2013

I got ya. That's what I've been afraid of. Sometimes its not so easy to free up but sometimes it's not that hard. When I try to bump/push it over in gear to free it the clutch just starts slipping. I know it's a pain in the ass to drain it and pull the cover every time it freezes up. It freezes a lot. After the first time I haven't bothered putting the water pump back together. I still have yet to figure out where the black keyed washer came from. If i put it behind the pump the impeller sticks out to far and I'm pretty sure it doesn't go on the outside of the impeller. I just don't see a keyed washer in the diagram.

The Ring-In

· #14 · Nov 24, 2013

its not only keyed its rubber faced and goes on the outside.

buy a new one.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #15 · Nov 24, 2013

I just figured it out! It's not the rubber backed washer it's the one that is sandwiched between the porcelain washer with the tuber back and the impeller itself. It's part number 1753302F00. I didn't realize that the porcelain washer came out of the impeller when I pulled it apart so I never though to see if that's where it went. I will get the replacement rubber backed washer. If I get it going I may just replace all the water/oil seals in the water pump. They all look to be in poor condition.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #16 · Nov 24, 2013

Quick question, does this engine have an oil filter bypass? I was just thinking that since the clutch went then there was probably a lot of clutch dust and debris in the oil which could be clogging the filter. I was the last person to ride it before the clutch went out and when I got done with it she was completely cashed out. It wouldn't move an inch. It was all I could do to get it back to my friends house, the previous owner. So I'm thinking perhaps the filter is clogged. That's not really an issue tho if there is a bypass. I know car engines have a bypass but I don't know if Suzuki utilizes an oil filter bypass. I was just fixing to go out so I thought I might pick up an oil filter while I'm out. Oh wait, it's Sunday, can't get one today unless auto zone or some parts house sells suzuki filters. May have to get one tomorrow.

The Ring-In

· #17 · Nov 24, 2013

abandon that thought

clutches don't go on tl's

people get it wrong and replace the plates rather than fix the cam.

if it has locked cos of ANY oil failure its F'd.

I'm spending a lot of my time on this but I have my money on the crank being stuffed. it runs till it gets hot enough to lock up on the bigends then stops.

thats why I want to hear it run.

At 2000 rpm it will have a distinct rumble.

if it stopped even once from oil starvation its a non recoverable situation. it can well do what you are experiencing. but no amount of unlocking will reverse the process that has already started.

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Felipe

Discussion Starter · #18 · Nov 25, 2013

Oh I completely agree and I do appreciate your time. What do you mean when you say "the crank is stuffed"? I'm not familiar with that term, sorry. I got the 10mm Allen wrench but apparently the gromet is stuck cause I ended up stripping it out and it never budged so I haven't been able to check the oil pressure yet cause I put it all back together and I have no crankshaft access and the battery is dead, I don't have a charger. Its a pain in the ass getting it in and out of the house to start it but I live in a large city and I dare not leave it outside. It would disappear in no short order. I was able to get an oil filter at Auto Zone. Apparently they have started selling motorcycle and ATV filters and such. I paid like $7 for a fram oil filter. That would have been $30 at the dealership probably. I'm gonna put it on for shits and giggles. I want to cut the old one open and see if it has metal in it. So far I have recovered very few metal fragments. When my GS450 spun a bearing it had metal fragments everywhere eventhough there was a minimal amount of damage, just one rod bearing. I took a flashlight and looked all tru the engine and I saw no metal. Guess well find out soon enough tho.

. Thank for all your help bro.

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1crock

· #19 · Nov 25, 2013

He means one of the main bearings welded itself to the crank. You've managed to break it loose which allows it to run, but only until it seizes again. I'm with Stu on this, you're looking at a rebuild.

Felipe

Discussion Starter · #20 · Nov 25, 2013

Oh ok I got ya. Yeah I agree if that's what happened its a for sure rebuild/replace. That would perhaps explain why the lack of metal debris. So that would cause it to lock back up? It wouldn't have to be hot to lock back up? I noticed to that before I put the plugs back in it would turn over all day without locking back up. Plugs back in and it locks up. I think I may pull the plugs before I check the oil pressure. I'm fixing to do that now. I'll report back when I'm done.

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