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Discussion Starter #1
I put a TLR Motor in my TLS about 10 years ago which has always run great but was almost impossible to start. I took it to two local mechanics who couldn't figure it out. I came up with a work around by adding a resister in series with the water temperature sensor so the ECU would think it was 40 degrees colder outside. I mounted a switch that would bypass the resister once the bike started. I should mention that I used the TLR throttle bodies with my stock TLS harness, and spliced in a TLR ecu. (Identical color codes!) My bike is a 97, so this may not be true in later models, but the TLR ECU had three more wires than my S. Two of them were for the secondary fuel injectors and there was one mysterious blue wire left over which I thought went to some extra sensor that my TLS didn't have. This year I re-did my wiring harness and took another look at the the wiring diagram and it turns out that blue wire goes between the neutral light the gear position switch. There is no mention of it's function in the manual, but I'm quite certain that this wire is used to tell the computer that the bike is in neutral. The manual says it's an open circuit in the pink wire, but I think someone at Suzuki decided that if the GPS connector was damaged or disconnected, the ECU would be running in the neutral map all the time without any fault code warning. I hooked up the extra blue wire this year and she starts right up now, no "choke" switch required. There must be something built into the neutral map to aid in starting the bike. I'm going to leave the switch in place over the summer and see if it might be still useful later in the year when the weather gets colder. Just one more thing to consider if your bike is hard to start.
 

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Congrats on getting it sorted after so long.

So, you didn't have a neutral light for all these years?

..... there was one mysterious blue wire left over ..... that blue wire goes between the neutral light the gear position switch. There is no mention of it's function in the manual, but I'm quite certain that this wire is used to tell the computer that the bike is in neutral. The manual says it's an open circuit in the pink wire, ....
Actually, the pink wire tells the ECM whether the transmission is in gear or neutral.

The blue wire provides the ground connection for the neutral light.



.....
There must be something built into the neutral map to aid in starting the bike. ......
Page 4-8 in the TLS manual explains that the "STARTING SIGNAL" triggers the ECM to add more fuel during the Start cycle. Could be more involved....
 

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Discussion Starter #3
There's three wires coming from the GPS. (On the TLR ) The black and white wire is the ground. I've always had a working neutral light because the blue wire coming out of the GPS goes two different places. One is through the neutral light directly to the battery more or less, and the other is into the ECU. The ECU connection is not needed to power the neutral light. That's why I think it must be used to tell the ECU to run the neutral map. If anyone else has a better explanation I'd like to know. Next time I ride I try starting my bike in gear and see if the starting issues come back. That shout clear this up.
 

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We always knew the clutch switch AND the GPS cause the ECU to change between lean-idle map and richer run map, but I've no clue whether the lean-idle map has extra temp compensation for cold-start also???? The enriched-start feature they talk about in the book I think is only during cranking???? The manual doesn't have anything to say about the clutch switch in the injection section that I've seen.

So, this is the first I've heard of anyone converting from TLS to TLR keeping the TLR TBs and keeping the TLS ECU but adding a few wires!!! Aren't the ECU plugs different? Very interesting!
 

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Why didnt you use the TLR loom also with the R gps ? Should solve everything.. no?
 

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So, this is the first I've heard of anyone converting from TLS to TLR keeping the TLR TBs and keeping the TLS ECU but adding a few wires!!! Aren't the ECU plugs different? Very interesting!
Typo. I meant converting from TLS to TLR and TLR ECU by converting the loom...

Like ADRIANFARINA says, if you used the R loom it would also help you relocate the battery location etc. to TLR config.

I pretty much made a loom for the TLR. Now i ope it fits, because I've never really seen how a TLR loom fits a normal TLR. My R was all from eBay parts and race parts.
 

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mine is very had to start....I changed motors last summer from a 99 tlr to a 2000 tlr...same hook up and everything....changed the starter, starter solenoid and battery....still cranks over very sloooow and drains the batter quick....don't know if this will help me but im willing to try anything right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I never thought about the clutch switch. There's a lot of starting and idling related quirks that I still don't understand. For example, when the extra ECU blue wire was not connected and I relied on my resister trick to start the bike, I could bypass the resister right after the bike started and the idle speed would remain the same, but once the bike was warmed up, switching in the resister would raise the idle speed about 500 rpm. If the resister tricks the ECU into thinking it's colder outside, I would think that the ECU would richen up the mixture at idle. This made me think that my power commander map might be a little lean. I tried adding fuel with the power commander hooked up at idle and it always made the idle drop, but switching in the resister would once again raise the idle speed as long as the bike was warm. I don't think I will ever figure this out on my own.

I decided to keep the TLS harness because I wanted to keep the battery located under the seat and not cover up the motor, and I thought I would would wind up cutting a lot of wires anyway trying to keep all the sensors in their stock locations. It was actually pretty easy to do once I got over the fear of ruining two perfectly good harnesses. I just cut 39 ECU wires about 2 inches from the TLS plugs and soldered and shrink wrapped them to the TLR plugs. It was just a matter of matching up colors and adding the two extra fuel injector wires, and of couse the extra blue wire. I had to use the rubber boots from the TLS and make new brackets tying the Throttle bodies together which wasn't too bad. The only thing that was really hard was modifying the air box.I must have spent at least hundred hours with a soldering iron and a dremel tool. I just uploaded a bunch of pictures to my album with some shots of the current air box. The green lid was made from a Rubbermaid storage box the I melted over a piece of copper with a plumbers torch. I bought an oval k & N car filter which I cut in half to make the dual filter setup. I'm not sure if they're visible to others. I want to build a new airbox from scratch this winter and then get some really good pictures of everything I've done. I plan to permanently mount section of the airbox under the throttle bodies where the ram air tubes attach. Hopefully this will allow the air more room to make the 90 degree turn up into the rest of the air box. Thanks a lot guys for all your input.
 

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.... the blue wire coming out of the GPS goes two different places. One is through the neutral light directly to the battery more or less, and the other is into the ECU. .... That's why I think it must be used to tell the ECU to run the neutral map. ......
Newmanpt66, you just opened my eyes to something I hadn't noticed before. :eek

The TLR wiring diagram indeed shows the Blue wire from the GPS going to the Neutral Light and to the ECM.

The TLS wiring diagram only shows a Blue wire going to the Neutral Light. It shows no connection to the ECM. Interestingly, the TLS diagram also shows a two-wire GPS, which may represent the '97's wiring scheme. The '98+ TLS may show the ECM connection if they ever updated the diagram. Or, that ECM connection may not even exist on the TLS. IDK :O I'll have to investigate on my '98.

So then, either the TLS and TLR sense the neutral position differently across the board, or merely the '97 TLS ECM is different from all other years (in yet another way).

No doubt, you are correct in that the Blue wire provides a status to the ECM for the Neutral position. Thanks for the heads up. :thumbup
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Glad you agree. One thing that puzzles me is that having the extra blue wire to indicate neutral should allow the ECU to generate a fault code if it sensed an open circuit in both the pink and blue wires simultaneously, but it doesn't. Whoever it was at Suzuki that decided to add the blue wire never finished the job.
 

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I've done the plus mod and charging mod. motor sound more beefy but still dragging to start. clueless over here..:confused

http://youtu.be/plYE6DbRS_w
I agree. something is certainly not right with that starting sequence. To begin with, 12.3 volts is low for cranking a TL. Did you note how low the voltage goes when the starter is cranking the engine over?

Also, with the charge mod installed, have you monitored the battery voltage when the engine is running to see that it is indeed charging properly?

Concerning the "sluggish" starter, it sounds like the starter clutch is slipping, or the starter motor is starving for voltage. Check these things:

Make sure all starter cable connections are clean and tight.
Measure the voltage drop across the starter relay - black probe on one SR terminal, red probe on the other SR terminal - during a start cycle. I see you have changed the starter motor and relay already, but these measurements could still prove useful.
Measure the voltage right at the starter's cable connection relative to chassis ground during a start cycle.

Post up the numbers you get from these measurements please.

Lastly, there is a test in the manual to determine if the starter clutch is within limits, but it requires some disassembly of the left engine case.
 

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Ive noticed that when i turn the key on that only one low beam light comes on.....it drags to start to the point that it will drain a full battery and when it does start, its runs strong and both low beams come on when I rev the engine high and then they stay on?

http://youtu.be/plYE6DbRS_w
 

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This isn't something as simple as a bad earth or a marginal battery is it? It sounds like an issue with current delivery from the battery. Since its runs ok once the generator kicks in it narrows things down a little. If (battery - generator = 1 headlight) and (battery + generator = 2 lights) does that narrow down an area in the loom where the losses might be occurring? Maybe go over the mods one more time just to check.
 

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I agree. something is certainly not right with that starting sequence. To begin with, 12.3 volts is low for cranking a TL. Did you note how low the voltage goes when the starter is cranking the engine over?

Also, with the charge mod installed, have you monitored the battery voltage when the engine is running to see that it is indeed charging properly?

Concerning the "sluggish" starter, it sounds like the starter clutch is slipping, or the starter motor is starving for voltage. Check these things:

Make sure all starter cable connections are clean and tight.
Measure the voltage drop across the starter relay - black probe on one SR terminal, red probe on the other SR terminal - during a start cycle. I see you have changed the starter motor and relay already, but these measurements could still prove useful.
Measure the voltage right at the starter's cable connection relative to chassis ground during a start cycle.

Post up the numbers you get from these measurements please.

Lastly, there is a test in the manual to determine if the starter clutch is within limits, but it requires some disassembly of the left engine case.
I will fully charge the battery again and then post up the numbers. I had to repair the stator wires a while back when i origianlly dove into it. they were chared....When i reconnected them to R/R using butt connectors, and started up it was kicking off 14v or so. now when the battery is at full charge it reads 13.02, when i crank it it drops to 11v or so, and while at idle even with reving, it only puts off 13.45 to 1360. There has got to be a problem with the R/R and I am going to do the kawi R/R when i find one her soon. But i just don't know if that has been it all along. when I checked the R/R, by doing a diode and reverse diode on it and read like 1920 something when it was supposed to just beep when i did the reverse diode. using the negative wire to red probe and touching leads to stator (with the R/R off the bike) I checked that little ground wire that goes from battery to motor case and the little wire that has the black connection from motor case to loom was burned. so i put in my other ground cable and added a 12ish gauge wired so i have three grounds form the motor. case to battery,case to loom and case to plus mod. the bike was dragging before i saw the burned stator to R/R wires. I've pulled the case and checked the starter gear but i didn't know what the hell i was doing when i did it. I made sure i didn't tighten it back too tight and everything...Ring-in told me once to stick my finger in the hole and see if it turn easily, and it never turned easily. when i jumped the started with another battery and negative to case with the key off i get nothing, when i turn the key on and jump it...it still drags if i remember correctly. I just started back tinkering around with it these last couple of weeks. I really appreciate you guys helping me out with this. Need to get my beast running tip top so i can justify building my own little paint booth to paint it. oh and yeah in the video, that was after i had already had it running, from a cold start, all it does is whine, for a while even after holding throttle open. then a sputter that finally turns into a start. and for some reason, when i run into a jam with it starting after it was just running, if i wiggle that little case to loom ground it will catch and start. im definately going to have to do a lot of tracing. its a mess.
 

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This isn't something as simple as a bad earth or a marginal battery is it? It sounds like an issue with current delivery from the battery. Since its runs ok once the generator kicks in it narrows things down a little. If (battery - generator = 1 headlight) and (battery + generator = 2 lights) does that narrow down an area in the loom where the losses might be occurring? Maybe go over the mods one more time just to check.
I am definately thinking about rerouting the plus mod ground to the batter instead of the case. just didn't want to clutter it up.
 

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I will fully charge the battery again and then post up the numbers. .......When i reconnected them to R/R using butt connectors, and started up it was kicking off 14v or so. now when the battery is at full charge it reads 13.02, when i crank it it drops to 11v or so, and while at idle even with reving, it only puts off 13.45 to 1360. .....
Actually, those voltage numbers are not too bad. You may be able to improve them a little by soldering the connections. Should be closer to 14 volts when spinning near 4K rpm.

What gage of wire did you use between the R/R and battery? Also, use a quality fuse holder, as that can turn into a problem area.

I wouldn't rely on the butt connectors on the stator connection for too long. Solder them to make them permanent.



....

I've pulled the case and checked the starter gear but i didn't know what the hell i was doing when i did it. I made sure i didn't tighten it back too tight and everything...Ring-in told me once to stick my finger in the hole and see if it turn easily, and it never turned easily. .....
That's a problem. That gearshould turn very easily in one direction only. The other direction it locks. That's what allows the starter motor to turn the engine over.



...
if i wiggle that little case to loom ground it will catch and start. im definately going to have to do a lot of tracing. its a mess.
That is a clear indication of a problem area that needs more investigation.
 

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Yeah i really need to bring him back. I think if i put about 5 or 6 hundred in it or maybe less i can get her back. Im thinking fuel pump,kawi r/r, another starter relay and possibly starter gear...any idea how much the starter gears usually run?
 

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