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Discussion Starter #1
Mornin all you fab but slightly perverse TL boyz 'n girlz. I'm new to the forum game but have been proudly nurturing my TLs since 1997 ~ we've fallen out a few times but I'm still feelin the love.

I've been scouring the internet but got distracted for several days in TLzone reading about possibility of being able to reprogram the ecu,
I'm now back to my problem a because if I can't start it there's no point in reprogamming it!

I had cause to strip the back of my bike a while ago (bearings, greasing, cleaning - it's 20th birthday), it all went well and I was feeling very virtuous. When put back together it started on the button as it always had but ran very badly, would not rev or tick over and only kept running for short time by working the throttle.

It took me a couple of weeks to discover I'd put the TOS on upside down (please could you all give me a well deserve beating and then help). I have since replaced it with no less than 3, the first one I fitted 'properly' and the bike didn't start, I fiddle for a few days before deciding to checked the sensor and it was broken, the next two I fitted and when the bike didn't start I check them straight away and they were also broken inside!

So to my plea for help, is there anything I could have done that is causing these sensors to fail when I press the button or have I been unlucky in getting 3 duff ones in a row - they're all second hand but were sold as tested and good. P.S. I am NOT fitting them upside down, anymore.

Looking forward to any entertaining and/or helpful feedback...
 

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Welcome to the forum SyncroBoy! :thumbup

Congrats on keeping the original for 20 years!

Concerning the Tip Over Sensor (TOS), they normally rattle, so don't let that mislead you to suspect it is broken. If you open one up, you'll find a "U" shaped spindle with a brass ring that slides along it. The ECM wants to see a value of ~ 68K ohms when the TOS is plugged in. If the bike falls over, the brass ring slides against the contacts and creates a low resistance signaling the ECM to generated an error code. If the TOS is not plugged in, the same code will be generated. A 64K - 68K ohm resistor can be used in place of the TOS, but you will loose the engine-shut-down safety feature.

Use an ohm meter to verify the resistance value of the TOS.

Has your TLS been in storage, or was it merely the reassembly after the rear end service that caused this running problem? There could be other issues at play here.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Evenin Six5, thank you for the welcome and your help.

I have popped the back off all 3 sensors and they have all had one or other of the contacts either side of the 'U' broken and rattling around inside which sounds very odd/unlucky/something crazy is happening when I press the starter.

The bike had been unused for a while but I have gone through loads of tests and investigating and googling; right now, if I squirt some fuel into the throottle bodies the bike will start and run till the fuel has gone. When I turn the key on the pump primes (evern with a broken sensor which I thought would cut the fuel pump and so stop the bike but it doesn't seem to work like that), when I press the starter fuel is pumped through the fuel rail and out of the return pipe, the injectors have been taken out and tested ok but not to any scientific standard, there is only a C21 code showing which I think is because I don't have the air box connected at the mo...

Now waiting for another TOS.

I've got to the point where I'm just redoing stuff I've already checked many times in desperation and hoping I get lucky!

Thanks again tho.
 

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....
I have popped the back off all 3 sensors and they have all had one or other of the contacts either side of the 'U' broken and rattling around inside which sounds very odd/unlucky/.....

... When I turn the key on the pump primes (even with a broken sensor which I thought would cut the fuel pump and so stop the bike but it doesn't seem to work like that), when I press the starter fuel is pumped through the fuel rail and out of the return pipe, ...
.....
Broken TO sensors? Very odd. :confused

Still, have you measured the resistance at the TOS wires? Is it open or somewhere near 68K ohms? If a resistance is registering, it is very likely that the ECM sees the TOS as "OK," and that would explain why the fuel and ignition system continue to work.

On the other hand, the manual says the ECM waits 8 seconds after key ON before issuing a TOS error code (page 4-33). This would allow time for the 3 second prime cycle and even starting the engine if the other systems were functional.

There have been reports of the TOS shutting down the system and only allowing the engine to run briefly after start up, all while not displaying any error code. However, for the purpose of troubleshooting, you will need to have some confidence in the ECM until it can be proved otherwise. Therefore, if the TOS error code, c23, is not displayed after 8 seconds, it is not the cause of the no-start problem. And as a last resort, it can be substituted with a 64K - 68K ohm resistor plugged into the TOS loom connector.

Since you say "the bike had been unused for a while," coupled with the fact that it did start when fuel was manually squirted into the throttle bodies, tells me the fuel delivery system should be looked at more closely. I know you say that the pump primes and fuel is going through the rail, but is it at a sufficient pressure, and are the injectors spraying into the throttle bodies? Your test says "no." Also, it is not uncommon for the pump and/or filter to fail when in storage, along with the now 'varnished' injectors possibly sticking.
 

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Adrenaline Junky
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It took me a couple of weeks to discover I'd put the TOS on upside down (please could you all give me a well deserve beating and then help).


Easily done... I actually have the sensor the right way up and the mount upside down... :laugh
 

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I have a 68k resistor

F'd if I know how its oriented :lol
 
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I have a 68k resistor

F'd if I know how its oriented :lol
too easy :banghead shame I'm on the work computer so I can't find appropriate 'orientation' pics :lol

best compromise:



Even wearing shorts and thongs!!!! (flip-flops for non-australians)
 

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There's sooooooo many thong jokes that could follow that. And more than a few images. :lol
 

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too easy :banghead shame I'm on the work computer so I can't find appropriate 'orientation' pics :lol

best compromise:



Even wearing shorts and thongs!!!! (flip-flops for non-australians)
Tom, who took this picture of you? I need a good photographer...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Evenin all you lovely people and thank you soooo much for my initiation into the murky world of the TL forum - some mildly humorous comments there and I am strong enough to take the fladulation, I appreciate you all being so gentle. I looked into replacing the TOS with a resistor but this orientation thing just sounds way to complex for me and they don't come with any instructions!

Anyway, enough of this tomfoolery, back to business, we can all play later...

Big thanks to Six5 again for your input; I managed to get a bit of time this morning before work.

The TOS is not open and by my humble meter registers 64K and there are no other error codes, I remove the injector plugs to test with the meter and also pressed the started and C32 & C33 show up as expected and went away when the plugs were refitted.

The bike had not been started for about 3 months, the only time the plugs get wet is when I manually squirt fuel down it's throats, the injectors are not firing into the throttles but do work if taken out and pulsed with a small battery, they are also clean and dry.

As you say, it's definately a fuel delivery problem, how can I test the fuel pressure with 'home' tools? My feeling is something's stopping or not operating the injectors but could easily be wring as I still have so much to learn.

Many thanks again and looking forward to progress.
 

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...As you say, it's definately a fuel delivery problem, how can I test the fuel pressure with 'home' tools? ....
It is technically not a "pressure" test, but you can do the 'fuel volume test' on page 4-51 in the manual. It will at least tell you whether the pressure is exceeding the regulator threshold or not.
 

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I have road rash on the right side of my TLR. Wanna know how it got there? Two years ago it was raining- I pulled the front break in too hard while turning into a parking lot. Noob mistake, right? Anyway... Focusing more on my cool points bouncing down the road and less on the current state of the bike, I grabbed me a handle-full of throttle while lifting it up. Little did I know the engine was still running. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm still not sure how that was possible. :confused In any case, the bike began to break-dance on the asphalt for roughly four seconds before I finally got to the kill switch. Strange days indeed.


So my point here, other than having an interesting life moment to share, is that my TOS obviously wasn't working on that day. And I never replaced it, so clearly the ECU could care less if it lives or dies.
 

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..... In fact, now that I think about it, I'm still not sure how that was possible. :confused ..... I finally got to the kill switch. .......

So my point here, other than having an interesting life moment to share, is that my TOS obviously wasn't working on that day. And I never replaced it, so clearly the ECU could care less if it lives or dies.
As mentioned earlier in this thread Josh, the ECM waits 8 seconds after the TOS has been activated before it shuts the system down. However, in your case, the TOS was not so much broken, as it was nonfunctional. As long as the TOS is plugged in and not shorting the internal terminals with the sliding brass ring, the ECM thinks everything is fine. What happens is the terminals inside the TOS that are supposed to be shorted together with the brass ring when a 'tip over' occurs, never actually get connected. This is because a thin oxidation layer forms on the contacts and/or the ring itself, and it prevents an electrical connection between those components. In many circumstances, the weight of the ring is insufficient to break through the oxidation, so the ECM has no way of knowing the bike has fallen over. Normally, with a fully functional TOS, the ring would contact the terminals, creating a short between them. The change in resistance (from 64K ohms to near zero) tells the ECM the bike has fallen over and it then disables the fuel system.

I have tested this "oxidation" effect in my 'lab.' When my TOS was tilted, the brass ring visually rested on the internal terminals, and if left to its own influence, the resistances at the TOS connector wires did not change - it remained at 64K ohms. However, if I put slight pressure on the ring (the TOS cover had been removed to give me access to the ring), the resistance would change to zero ohms. So then, as an electrical device, the TOS is unreliable. I'm sure they are not all like this, but I image, as they age, more and more will merely be paper weights attached to our beloved classic TLs.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Well work is really messing up my hope of sorting this before our brief summer is over, not been able to look at it for ages but this weekend has some gaps...

Thanks again Six5, didn't mean for you to use precious time digging up workshop manual stuff for me - cheers anyway - hadn't made the connection between your pressure test suggestion and the flow test, I have check the flow a couple of times and it's just about inside the acceptable rate.

So now it's the big push, probably in more ways than I can imagine - I'll be back...
 

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Not sure if you already have this but here is a link to the workshop manual. Also, can you fill in your profile so we have a rough idea of where you are in the world? You might find that you have a forum member nearby who could help out.


Here's a list of the bikes that use the same TOS, should help with finding parts online

Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R1000 K1-K2 (01-02), 2001-2002, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R600 K1-K3 (01-03), 2001-2003, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R750 T-X (96-99), 1996-1999, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R750 Y-K3 (00-03), 2000-2003, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX-R750 Y-K3 (00-03), 2000-2003, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX1300R K4-K7 (04-07), 2004-2007, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX1300R X-K3 (99-03), 1999-2003, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX1400 K2-K5 (02-05), 2002-2005, All Colours
Suzuki, GSX1400 K6-ZK7 (06-07), 2006-2007, All Colours
Suzuki, TL1000S V-K1 (97-01), 1997-2001, All Colours
Suzuki, TL1000S V-K1 (97-01), 1997-2001, All Colours

Heres a cheap method of stopping the TOS from working if youre having issues with a faulty unit. Very popular on buggies and bike engined cars.

 

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SyncroBoy said:
.....if I squirt some fuel into the throttle bodies the bike will start and run till the fuel has gone.
....
The TOS is not open and by my humble meter registers 64K and there are no other error codes, I remove the injector plugs to test with the meter and also pressed the starter and C32 & C33 show up as expected and went away when the plugs were refitted.

The bike had not been started for about 3 months, the only time the plugs get wet is when I manually squirt fuel down it's throats, the injectors are not firing into the throttles but do work if taken out and pulsed with a small battery, they are also clean and dry.
.....
....
....your pressure test suggestion and the flow test, I have check the flow a couple of times and it's just about inside the acceptable rate.
....

Given your findings up to this point, here are some items for reference. Page 4-27 in the manual shows the components that can prevent the engine from starting if the ECM is not satisfied with the feedback. The fact that yours will start and run when fuel is manually administered through the throttle bodies strongly points toward a fuel pressure or injector problem, since the other components in the system can maintain the starting and running (combustion) process until the fuel is gone.

Of course, you would expect the appropriate error code to be reported by the ECM, but I have read reports which indicate that doesn't always happen. :confused




Also page 4-30.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!

I cannot believe what has just happened - so yesterday I decided to strip things back and start again;
tank off and stripped out (again) and all seems good in there
injector gubbins off and out, cleaned tested (again) plenty good squirting
plugs condition spark all good (still)
battery charged
ecu and loom connections unplugged and fiddled with (again)
fresh new fuel
even got an eye full of petrol - twice!

All back together press the button and BOOMMMboomboomboom...

Sweeeeeet music to my ears, didn't know wheather to laugh or cry and had to deal with the frustration of not knowing what the (swear swear swear) that was all about!

We have been out making up most of the afternoon and it's been faaaantastic.

Huge big thanks for your input and really sorry that I don't have an answer, hope it's not too hollow not knowing, I have no idea but can make plenty of guesses.

Out of interest, I've attached a pic of one of the duff TOS sensors, they all had one broken terminal like this one, is this how they
normally break?

TOS.jpg
 

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.....
All back together press the button and BOOMMMboomboomboom...
......
Huge big thanks for your input and really sorry that I don't have an answer, hope it's not too hollow not knowing, ....
I'll get over not knowing the answer to your dilemma. :crazy

Glad you are back on the road! :)



....
Out of interest, I've attached a pic of one of the duff TOS sensors, they all had one broken terminal like this one, is this how they
normally break?

View attachment 50337
In my experience, the TOS doesn't "normally break." It is pretty much a bullet-proof little box that gets ignored for the life of the bike. Then again, stranger things have happened. My guess is that someone was fiddling with them in an attempt to adjust or experiment. :O
 
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