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Maybe use a small propane torch around the intake vacuum lines and listen for a surge in idle?
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Maybe use a small propane torch around the intake vacuum lines and listen for a surge in idle?
If it's that important, I'll just try to get my hands on a new hose. I figured the hoses with clips on them were a little more important than some of the others. But I'm still not sure what this hose does. Other than allow an oily residue into my airbox. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #24
What I meant by the crack not being long enough was that the crack does not pass the metal clip or the raised area on the nipple. But your point about the size of an oxygen molecule is a good point. :) If I had any extra slack with this hose I might cut a half inch off. But this one is pretty short.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
While having the throttle cables and all exposed, I checked to see if there was any mechanical issues preventing my fast idle cable from raising RPM's like it's supposed to. However, there's no rust, nothing broken. All seems to be connected and working right. But all the fast idle cable does is cause give me more problems keeping a steady idle.
WITHOUT the fast idle cable on and with idle set to around 1200 RPM's here's what happens when I slowly roll on the throttle. AS SOON as I open the throttle the slightest bit, the RPM's actually drop. Then after just a bit more throttle, the RPM's surge up to nearly 4000 RPM's. After that, throttle response is smooth and appropriate.
Again, there are no cracks in any vac lines (except that big one I just posted on the bottom of the airbox). TPS seems to be set right. I haven't done the TB sync yet. And I haven't gotten my hands on a Yosh box yet. But is there anything else I'm missing that could cause this? How difficult is it to clean out the jets myself? I'm much more familiar with carbureted motors than FI. I may be getting in over my head...
 

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While having the throttle cables and all exposed, I checked to see if there was any mechanical issues preventing my fast idle cable from raising RPM's like it's supposed to. However, there's no rust, nothing broken. All seems to be connected and working right. But all the fast idle cable does is cause give me more problems keeping a steady idle.
WITHOUT the fast idle cable on and with idle set to around 1200 RPM's here's what happens when I slowly roll on the throttle. AS SOON as I open the throttle the slightest bit, the RPM's actually drop. Then after just a bit more throttle, the RPM's surge up to nearly 4000 RPM's. After that, throttle response is smooth and appropriate.
Again, there are no cracks in any vac lines (except that big one I just posted on the bottom of the airbox). TPS seems to be set right. I haven't done the TB sync yet. And I haven't gotten my hands on a Yosh box yet. But is there anything else I'm missing that could cause this? How difficult is it to clean out the jets myself? I'm much more familiar with carbureted motors than FI. I may be getting in over my head...
There are no jets in a fuel injected system. If rolling onto the throttle immediately drops the rpms, that says to me vacuum issue or a fuel delivery issue. Either bad sync (which you said you handled) or an air leak or weak fuel pressure. The ecm is calling for a certain fuel to air level and that is being altered. Either clogged primary injectors, vacuum leak, or fuel pump/filter... a yosh box WILL NOT fix your issue...

You don't actually need the fast idle cable at all. It could be removed and the bike would run fine... try re seating the air box and tightening the boots. They can cause headaches if they aren't seated fully...
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I guess I meant injectors when I said jets. How difficult is it to clean the injectors myself? My fuel treatments don't seem to be working.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I haven't done the TB sync yet. I've got to get the right tubing and find out exactly which nipples to connect to. Once I get the TB sync and TPS done, I'll put it back together and see what she runs like. But I just don't feel like the sync will help. I agree with you it's either fuel or vacuum related. Especially with bike running perfect over 4000 RPM's. With the cylinder intakes exposed, I would get a small flame out of the front cylinder nearly every time before the RPM surge when slowly rolling on the throttle. I just don't think TB sync or putting the airbox back on there would fix that. Forgive me... what do you mean by "tightening the boots?"
 

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While having the throttle cables and all exposed, I checked to see if there was any mechanical issues preventing my fast idle cable from raising RPM's like it's supposed to. However, there's no rust, nothing broken. All seems to be connected and working right. But all the fast idle cable does is cause give me more problems keeping a steady idle.
If the fast idle cable is not moving the cam lever up to engage the throttle linkage, it simply needs to be adjusted. There is a procedure in the manual for that.


WITHOUT the fast idle cable on and with idle set to around 1200 RPM's here's what happens when I slowly roll on the throttle. AS SOON as I open the throttle the slightest bit, the RPM's actually drop. Then after just a bit more throttle, the RPM's surge up to nearly 4000 RPM's. After that, throttle response is smooth and appropriate.
......
This makes me think of two things - neither one is for certain. Just thinking out loud....

1) A Bad Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). There may be a bad spot in the resistor/wiper contact. If it is as drastic as the symptoms suggest, you will be able to see it glitch on a meter when you do the test outlined in the manual.

2) A Bad IAP sensor. This sensor detects the vacuum in the intake manifold and the ECM uses that information to add fuel in the proper amounts - especially at lower rpms. I forget the correct terminology, but the fuel injection method used by the TL employs two separate modes to determine the fuel mix. In the lower revs, it primarily uses the IAP sensor and TPS info up to about 3700~4000 rpm. After that rpm, it switches to a different mode where the primary sensors are the TPS and the Crankshaft speed (RPM). A faulty IAP sensor or circuit could explain why it smoothes out above 4000 rpm.




I haven't done the TB sync yet. ....... But I just don't feel like the sync will help. I agree with you it's either fuel or vacuum related. Especially with bike running perfect over 4000 RPM's. ....."
The TB balance really needs to be done (if it will idle) before you get too involved in pursuing other fixes. The vacuum balance has a large impact on how it runs with small throttle openings. Once the butterflies are opened substantially, any variance between the two TBs doesn't really affect the performance, because now the engine in just sucking air in through two large openings. It doesn't care if one is a few thousandths less than the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
As for the fast idle cable... it doesn't move the TB at all. So I'll make those adjustments tomorrow.
I believe my tubing is ready for TB sync. However, I've gotten no responses in my other post about how to do the TB sync properly. I need to know if antifreeze or 2-cycle oil will be ok to use in the tubing. And I need to know which nipple to connect to on the rear air intake. Then I'll get the TB sync done. I'll do the TPS adjustment as well. I'm not really anticipating any improvement with either of these adjustments. But I'm a nurse... not a mechanic. I'm hoping for the best.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Six5, a few months ago you helped me identify that my IAP sensor was the wrong part completely... from some other motorcycle. After getting the right IAPS on my TLR, the low RPM issues improved a LOT! However, the problem is still there. I wish I could sit down and talk with the guy who took the bike apart and find out exactly what went wrong. Might save me some time.
I've done the airbox mod. I was hoping removing the flappers would fix the problem. But I've already run the bike without the airbox at all and the problem is still there. I will update y'all after I get the TB sync and TPS adjusted.
I'm hoping, with the assistance of the forum members here, I can systematically attack this problem and fix it. Thanks for all your help!
 

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As for the TB sync tool.
Go to a doller store & buy a cheap qrt of Transmission Fluid.
I tried using anti freeze, because it was Years since I was going to attempt to make one & forgot which to use.
Anti freeze is too thin & harder to read Or keep from getting sucked into the TB's.

Heres the exact one I copied.
https://youtu.be/iG8oM-XcmeM

& yes, a TPS & TB sync can have that much of an impact.
you'll see when adjusting it yourself.
that backfire into the TBs will switch TB's if you adjust it enough the opposite way. (it did for mine)

As for injector cleaning at a shop.
Mine only charged me $20.

& if its a TPS issue.
These guys showed me a thread on how to clean the inside of the TPS.
I lost all my bookmarked links tho, when my computer crashed.

I've been through every single thread I can find like this when I was having my problem.
& I dont recall reading of Any TLR's having ECU problems like mine & other TLS's.
(if the experts want to confirm)
so thats probably some good news vs my prior headaches.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Well, I am going out of my mind!!

As recommended on the TLR I was going to do the TB sync before TPS. I used a wide yard stick, I bought some hard, 1/4", plastic ice machine tubing (should have got something softer) taped it up both sides. I glued in (5-min epoxy) some metal connectors and used some extra vac hose from my airbox hack job to connect to the nipples. I did this in hopes of ensuring no air leaks during the sync. I put about 10cc of 2-cycle engine oil in the tubing and let it set over night to level out. It poured in WAY too slowly and stuck to the side of the tubing where I poured it in. Maybe the weather was too cold for 2-cycle engine oil. I performed the TB sync the next day (50 degrees outside) and it wasn't what I expected. All the videos I've seen show the fluid bouncing up and down but both sides stay the same until adjustments are made. In my tubing, the 2-cycle engine oil was constantly climbing up on one side and dropping on the other side. When I adjusted the TB sync screw, the fluid would start dropping on the high side and climbing on the other. I made adjustments for what seemed like 20 minutes until I got the fluid to stop climbing/dropping on both sides with the fluid level on both sides. Keep in mind, the bike is running VERY poorly and backfiring/misfiring the entire time. I can't hardly get the bike to idle at 1200 RPM's like you're supposed to. Anything under 2k RPM's and the bike dies.
TB sync complete, I decide to put all the hoses back where they go and put the airbox back in place just to see if it runs any better.
NOW... I have a bright yellow popcorn machine in the garage! Backfiring or Misfiring every 2-3 seconds with a BIG bang every 15-20 seconds! I'm assuming it's running super rich because my clothes REAK of gas fumes just from standing near the bike at idle.
So what was supposed to make my bike run smoother has now created a number of new problems. Here's a list of what changes I made over the last week or so to see if any of you can help me figure this out before I throw this bike in the river:
1) First thing I did was the Airbox mod. I hacked away at both sides of the middle part that the air filter mounts onto. I removed the flappers. I left the metal actuators (or whatever they are) on top and just connected some vac hose between them. And I just connected the T-connector with a small loop of remaining vac hose that was running to the actuators originally. This is where the bike started running very poorly. After the "TB sync" I put all the vac hoses back where they were and put the airbox back together with no leftover screws. So I strongly believe the bike was put back together the way I got it (minus some plastic and vac hose from the airbox)
2) I made the usual adjustments to the TB sync screw (the top one) until the fluid was balanced. However there's a strong possibility some 2-cycle engine oil was sucked into the front TB during the sync. There was still some fluid coating the side of the tubing where I poured in the fluid the night before.
3) I attempted to adjust the fast-idle screw so the fast idle lever would be effective. I was hoping this would help me get better RPM control at idle.
4) I used some WD-40 on the idle adjust knob (left side of bike, mounted to frame) in hopes of having better RPM control at idle.
5) I put some electrical tape around the tip of the larger hose connected to the left underside of the airbox to try to keep it from cracking any further.

That's really all I have done over the last week. As soon as I did the airbox mod I noticed the bike running poorly. But the airbox was off the bike at the time. So the only real difference was the T-connector connected to itself with the leftover vac hose. The only things I can think of that would contribute to this awful, impossible to idle, backfiring/misfiring mess of a bike are:
1) Maybe some 2-cycle engine oil got into the front cylinder during the TB-sync. If so, is there any way to clean it out?
2) Maybe (and I strongly doubt this) some 5-min epoxy cracked off and got sucked into the nipple on the front TB during the sync.
3) Maybe I made a gross error putting the vac hoses back together and something is reversed or just not connected at all.

I have no FI light, no error codes in "Dealer Mode". I have no idea what's wrong now. All I know is the bike is back together with no leftover pieces, and it's running 50x worse than before. I haven't even attempted the TPS because won't idle at 1200 RPM's anymore. Any input or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated before I start taking the bike apart again.
 

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the vac port closest to the motor is the most desirable cos others can be on the throttle plate parting line. 6-5
 

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Sorry to hear of your troubles malenurse. These TLs can be frustrating at times, and especially so when you are new to the game and don't understand how all the systems work together.

For the moment, you will make more progress if you step away from it for a day or two and just think about what it's doing and what it needs to correct the problem.

Still, a few suggestions came to mind for when you readdress it.

.... I made adjustments for what seemed like 20 minutes until I got the fluid to stop climbing/dropping on both sides with the fluid level on both sides. Keep in mind, the bike is running VERY poorly and backfiring/misfiring the entire time. I can't hardly get the bike to idle at 1200 RPM's like you're supposed to. Anything under 2k RPM's and the bike dies.
First, the vacuum tool you put together reacts too slowly. It is not showing you what is really going on in the TBs. You'll need a thinner fluid.

The backfiring and misfiring are likely because the TBs really are out of balance now. However, before you reattempt to balance them, go back to post #29 and do the test in the manual for the TPS and the IAP sensor. There is a reason the ECM is dumping too much fuel in, and these two sensors play a big part in how the ECM makes those decisions. You need to make sure these sensors are good, and the vacuum connections are tight and proper, or you'll just be wasting your time making adjustments.

Remind me. Did you buy a new IAP sensor, or was it from a used TL?





.....Backfiring or Misfiring every 2-3 seconds with a BIG bang every 15-20 seconds! I'm assuming it's running super rich because my clothes REAK of gas fumes just from standing near the bike at idle.
Redesign your vacuum tool.

Measure the TPS carefully.



....
1) First thing I did was the Airbox mod. ... This is where the bike started running very poorly. After the "TB sync" I put all the vac hoses back where they were and put the airbox back together with no leftover screws. So I strongly believe the bike was put back together the way I got it ....
Check all your vacuum connections again and compare them to the diagram in the manual. In section 4, page 20 something....


.....
1) Maybe some 2-cycle engine oil got into the front cylinder during the TB-sync. If so, is there any way to clean it out?
2) Maybe (and I strongly doubt this) some 5-min epoxy cracked off and got sucked into the nipple on the front TB during the sync.
3) Maybe I made a gross error putting the vac hoses back together and something is reversed or just not connected at all.
#3 is the most likely one to have any impact on how it runs.


...All I know is the bike is back together with no leftover pieces, and it's running 50x worse than before. I haven't even attempted the TPS because won't idle at 1200 RPM's anymore. Any input or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated before I start taking the bike apart again.
It is running very poorly now because the TB balance is way off from where it was. Still, go back to post #29 and measure the TPS per the manual before you attempt anything else.
 

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the TPS is connected to the rear throttle body
its function is not critical to the running of the bike really
quite a way off is neither here nor there it just runs rich or lean.
because it is on the rear body and the idle screw is on the front it will NEVER be right till the bodies are balanced.
so hence you balance the bodies first.
the IAP is critical cos it will never deliver accurate fuel mix in any range if its got a leaky hose. and it need a damper and a reservoir to ensure its not jumping all over the place.the damper is a fine hole in a restrictor in the hose..........
So if you actually have a tap in one hose to the gauges if you are using a U tube assembly it does not matter what the viscosity is.
thicker is fine.
ever measured the viscosity of mercury?
Its about setting the tap to damp the pulses and it doesn't matter what RPM you start at to do the balance.
Start at 2000 and work your way down.
In fact if its different at 2000 to idle then there is another problem with one of the throttle plate stop screws.
the balance is far more critical at the running opening of the throttle than the idle position tho it should be identical if evrything is OK with the linkages.
often its not.
so if you have a choice of sync at idle or sync with the throttle suspended by the cables then you choose the one where its suspended by the cables cos that is how the bike is operated.....
Clear?
Now you understand why I don't get overly involved in helping with this.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
The IAP came from a used TL. But it improved my low RPM issues by about 50%. Its still tough to ride smooth under 35 mph. But much better than when first go the bike. Its just frustrating, after all the success and progress at improving the bike's performance, to take so many steps back. I'm sure checking vac lines and tb sync again will help. And TPS too once its idling right. I'll get back in there some day soon and start over. I'll keep y'all posted. Thank you all for the responses.
 

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I would also check the cutout switches by the clutch lever and the kickstand .Pull them out and spray some contact cleaner into the sockets .My bike was acting up one day ,started running very rough ,backfiring and dying out ,and it turned out there was crud in the clutch kill switch socket .I did my own throttle body sync ,the sync Guage I bought used mercury . There is a video for doing the throttle body sync and tps on youtube by the way or maybe youre already using that .You also haven't mentioned whether or not you changed out your fuel filter . Mind you ,I'm not a mechanic ,I'm just a concrete finisher . ;)
 

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...Now you understand why I don't get overly involved in helping with this.
We can be trying at times. :) Still, it's good that you do get involved once in awhile Stu. It helps us think outside of the box.



.....
So if you actually have a tap in one hose to the gauges if you are using a U tube assembly it does not matter what the viscosity is.
thicker is fine.
ever measured the viscosity of mercury?
Its about setting the tap to damp the pulses ....
...
....
Well, no, I haven't measured the viscosity of mercury. So I googled it.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/absolute-viscosity-liquids-d_1259.html

Most of it is greek to me, but the chart labeled Liquids - Temperature and Dynamic Viscosity shows that olive oil is about 60 times more viscous than mercury at ~25 degrees C. And if I'm reading the color codes correctly, castor oil is about 600 times more viscous than mercury at the same temp.

Addtionally, I've noticed that mercury does not have the property of adhering to the inside tube surface as oils do.

The OP says he used "2-cycle engine oil" for his vacuum balance device, so it seems likely that the viscosity could have played a part in the slow reaction. Still, I'm not doubting your method, since you have actually used the "U tube" design, whereas I have not. Perhaps he merely needs a tap in one side as you say and it will work fine.


It's unfortunate that we don't have a good sticky thread on TB balancing in the Frequent Mods Forum, in view of how often this discussion comes up. If a good reference were documented somewhere, I might be less inclined to give someone the wrong instructions next time. :laugh


Stu, do you have something on your website that could be referenced? Then we could link to it?
 
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