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Discussion Starter #1
Somewhat like the holy grail I am forever searching for the ideal LED drop-in replacement lamps to replace the rather sad halogens on my tiller.

I've just bought some of these:

Yet more LEDs

Mixed results compared to the P7s that were in there previously. Low beam - great. High beam, in itself is ok but since the low beam turns off when high is engaged it leaves a whacking great dark spot.

Highs and lows

The obvious solution is to have both high and low on when high is engaged. What do we think is the best solution? Return the bulbs to the vendor and ask for a modified version that does low and low+high instead of "low or high" or do I finagle the electrics such that low is always on and high just adds the high?

These lamps have a lot of advantages over older LED designs, not least of which is there is no huge heatsink or fan so they just slot in under the original rubber boots.
The dispersion patterns and focus are good for each respective beam and a version where the beams are combined would be outstanding. A version that has both sets of emitters on when high beam is engaged would probably be the best result I've ever had.

I'm going to see what the vendors says.

Six5, you got any good ideas how I might change the hi-lo switch to a double throw?


Cheers All.
 

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It is my opinion that this new design although simpler, limits the power and heat dissipation !

If you have them both turned on it would burn itself out !

There as to be a sizable heatsink.
 

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And you need to adjust the height of your beams !

They are way to low !

Until they make the perfect LED there is still the HID route.
My HID's;
65776

65777



So adjust your beams please, and do keep looking ! (I am too).
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Beam adjustment is fine. The bike was sat on a downhill slope with the lights hitting a rising road surface. If everything had been on the flat it would have looked different. You also have to take into account the phone camera's behaviour. What a camera sees and what the eye sees are often very different things.

I've emailed the vendor to get the power handling capabilities of the lamps. Current draw from LEDs tends to be a lot lower than halogens so I'm not overly concerned about the load on the electrical system.

The easy "fix" is just a jumper across the switch for low beam so it is always on. I might test it just for fun.
 

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Somewhat like the holy grail I am forever searching for the ideal LED drop-in replacement lamps to replace the rather sad halogens on my tiller.
.........

Six5, you got any good ideas how I might change the hi-lo switch to a double throw?
Snowy, once again, thanks for being the guinea pig when it comes to LED testing.


.........
The easy "fix" is just a jumper across the switch for low beam so it is always on. I might test it just for fun.
As Twin2 noted, power dissipation in the LED module itself could be a limiting factor. Also, think about how the headlight housing can handle the heat since there is no fan or external heat sink. Of course, the housing can handle dual H4s at 60 watts each, so the LEDs burning both elements may not be an issue, IDK.

Once you are happy with the power dissipation question, turning the low beam on when the high beam is activated should be a relatively simple operation.

Two options come to mind.
The simplest one being a substantial diode between the high beam control and the low beam control wires. That way when the high beam is turned on, the low beam will also activate, but not vice versa due to the action of the diode. Of course, there would be a voltage to drop across the diode, which means the low beam would receive a little less voltage with this configuration.

The other option is to use a relay to activate the low beam when the high beam is turned on.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The diode idea is nice but the simpler solution is just to jump across the switch contacts for the low beam in the hi-lo switch. Once I know the power consumption characteristics I'll give it a try.
The bulb seat in the light housing is just a lump of alloy so there is some degree of heat-sinking going on there. It is just a question of whether the dissipation is sufficient to stop the electronics in the bulbs melting when both emitters are on. That said, the time the high beams are on tends to be fairly limited anyway, plus you are usually moving at speed so the air flow around the light housing is significant.

If the vendor can come up with an option which supports having both sets of diodes on that would be the preferred option of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think I figured out why I get the dark spot on high beam. I was comparing the new LEDs with a stock halogen (still have purple spots on my vision from looking at an unshielded LED even through sun-glasses) and doing a bit of ray-tracing in my head. I think the shadow is cast by the alloy spine holding the emitters. In terms of relative position the LEDs compare very well to the filaments in a halogen which is important for preserving correct focus and beam dispersion. Where it breaks down in the LED is the bulk of the support holding the board gets in the way of some of the downward travelling light rays. In the halogen there is pretty much nothing in the path of light between the high beam filament and the reflective surfaces. In the LED there is a big chunk of alloy. The solution would be to have all the LEDs active when hi beam is engaged but in my testing today it appears that the internal circuitry is such that this is impossible.

Does give more of an idea as to why the reflectors and lenses in newer LED light designs are as complex as they are. Our poor old TL headlights are very highly optimized for a halogen and even a tiny deviation from that precise point source lessens the effectiveness.

There might be some compromise to be had from suitable adjustment. Job for the weekend perhaps.
 

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Good to know that your beams are well adjusted.

Like you said, you may get away with both leds on if you only do it for short periods, but how much time is the question ?

If they can last 5-10min without fail ? But as soon as I say that I'm thinking leds get hot fast....

I used to run 55-100w halogens and just made sure I didn't use (100W) for to long.

Oh, I'm sure you must know about this by now, but have you turned the led's inside the housing to finetune the focus ? (doze this model even allows this ?)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
These things don't have any adjustment in the bulbs themselves. It also looks like the internal circuitry is such that you can't run all the LEDs at once. Vendor says it wouldn't be a problem if you could though. I'm going to play about with the adjustment to see if there is anything to be had from the optics in the headlights. If they don't work then they are offering me money back so not a total loss.
 

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Being down under (NZ), and doing a lot of night riding, in a country where we have a high bike/rider mortality rate, I quickly became disenchanted with the low level of usable light that the TLs with OEM 55-100w H4 halogens were putting out there. For me it was a simple matter of 'see and be seen' so as to not get collected nor out ride the lights.
So by way of remedy, and to drop the draw on the system plus risk cooking the OEM legacy bulbs and more critically - simply increase the illumination, I converted all bulbs to LEDS including the H/L headlights, - to insure at the least I would be seen at a distance. The new LED bulbs were great for being seen, but not so much for seeing.
However added to this I soon found the new bulbs didn't have the right projection pattern as the H4's, so as to comply to the (NZ) 'Warrant of Fitness' standards. The concern being that when the LED's are on full they may rise so as to blind oncoming traffic. Now considering the structure of the Headlight lenses are made for traditional H4's and visa versa, has anyone seen a LED & source, which has a similar pattern and throw, to that found in the original H4's ?
To some degree I have side stepped this issue by increasing the illumination through fitting small block spot projector LED's and mounted these on the inside of the upper forks, in front of the horn, below the front headlights and above the front mudguard, but again dumbed these down through placing a lens film (transparent drafting film with double sided tape) diretly on the glass lens to convert these to look alike fog-lights, again this to conform with the strict demands of those charged with 'on road vehicle compliance'....
Needless to say, I have no intention of compromising other road users, and do see the issue, but also need an effective remedy to achieve better illumination so as not to become another fatality due to not having been seen by others at night. I know this is not a unique issue, so any advice ?
 

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For being seen, but depending on what your dictatorship allows you to have, COB led are great at that, because of their perfect 180 degrees output.
For the day time (not sure at night) you could slap these on the top corners of your headlight.;
2 x Ice Blue L Shape COB Car LED Light DRL Fog Driving Lamp Waterproof DC12V | eBay
I have tested these and they are bright, and I recommend ice blue, they are brighter then the whites and catch attention (the amber ones are a joke) the ice blue is also less ugly when turned off.
Be warned that you may need to swap the cables for a bigger gauge (your welding skills could be tested).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The ice-blue lights are a: for show purposes only, b: not road-legal (in the UK at any rate), c: partly a waste of time in energetic terms as the light produced is straying off into the UV ranges so they don't produce any useful illumination as far as your eyes are concerned.

Anything with a colour temp over 6000K is either not legal or a waste of energy (or more often both).

The science behind how eyes perceive light is quite interesting, especially in terms of sensitivity varying with the wavelength. You actually "see" things better towards the yellow end of the spectrum.
LEDs particularly are blue light pushed through a yellow filter to make it look white. The dominance of wavelengths towards the blue end of the spectrum explains why things lit up with LEDs tend to have that washed out look. The ideal in some respects is to use a colour temp around 4000-5000K although then you get into a whole different territory around lumen counts which are to do with perceived intensity as opposed to actual light flux densities.

Halogen, HID, LED: they are all compromises in one way or another. In the sphere of the present investigation we regard halogens as simply rubbish. This leads us to finding a good way to convert to one of the other solutions and, to date, a simple plug and play option with no drawbacks has not been forthcoming.

Which reminds me, I need to go try and adjust those new lights.
 

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Thank you for your input Twin2 and Snowblind, your insight is much appreciated.

Twin2's solution is noted, excellent find, but according to the (NZ) book, like the UK, needs to be 6000K kalvin to legally qualify and not obscure the OEM lenses. However we do have various other vehicles on/off road, where these could be very useful. So thanks...

As a rider of 50+ years, when confronted by a new SUV's or more to the point a Road trains, with their off the shop floor complaint LED builds and accompanying superior illumination. These seen coming towards me at speed, well over a 2klm away, with their huge 'night to daylight' luminosity and massive projection/range, it simply makes me grumpy as I know they more than likely simply can't even see me.... That as they approach and providing they do see me, they dip their brilliant LED lights, to insure that that I'm not entirely blinded by that illumination.
So clearly where there's a will, there is a way to build fully functional complaint LED's....to fit legacy MC illumination systems, (like that found on the TLs)......that are functional and complaint. Look at all the contemporary big brand MC's that utilize LED technology straight out of the factory and off the shop floor !

In the past, I have purchased a variety of Halogens looking for the holy grail with little success, these being 6000k, 100/55's with moderate luminosity,hi/low capacity and with a compliant pattern. These fail the luminosity test when compared to there LED counter parts in regards to 'being seen'. Subsequently purchased a variety H/L LED' sets, at 10% of the cost of Halogens, these mainly without a fan nor ballast unit, instead are direct H4 plug and play units, which are low cost, low draw, effective, durable, but simply don't emulate the Halogen beam pattern, thus both safety and road compliance considerations are abrogated. Damn !

Low draw is important if you don't want to deploy the 'lights on/off bi-pass as a first solution at the point of ignition. That with all light on using Halogens before ignition, that draw using those traditional bulbs can challenge engine start up. Where stepping down the headlight draw by using LED's seemed a simpler solution and that when the Headlight is on Hi for any length of time, using the LED's the draw doesn't heat up the now aged and possibly distressed wiring looms and connectors to the same degree. (Initially I found my wiring and connectors supporting the hi Beam were badly burn't out and housing had melted. After remedial work, and applying US made 'Di-Electric' grease, I never looked back. So LED deployment is a win / win.

I guess the LED manufacturers need to do more around R&D so as to capture those wanting to transition from the 'old standard' market, through developing a n LED that emulates the all around functionality of the H4 Halogen configuration, so that there's a robust crossover from the old world to new.

There is hope as technology advances, where I note that more recently: when it comes to electronic and digital technology, with computers in particular, that legacy stuff that was previously sidelined and then junked, now can find new life as contemporary R&D and technology reaches back to bridge the gaps between the old builds and new tech, so that yesterdays junk is no longer redundant. With any luck auto illumination technology may be following a similar path.... where we're simply waiting for tech to advance and if it does whoever will capture a huge market. A bit like changing out indicator bulbs or entire indicator sets from old to new LEDs, it cannot be rocket science.

After all H4's are basically all the same design, only varying in strength and color, and the various mounts and lenses are the counterparts, so that bulb and lens configuration is near always similar.....so why not a LED look alike !

I'm largely keeping my TLsw machine to OEM standard, rather than building a naked version, this with the exception of illumination and the addition of an invaluable TRE that came off a later model DL1000, so wont be substituting the entire headlight to match my LED aspirations, instead will wait and see if anything emerges and rely upon the fog spot lights for visibility.

However, if anyone does spot better LED illumination, that emulates the functionality of a H4 bulb, which may bridge the gap between old and new, do let me know and in the mean time I'll keep searching and needless to say if I do have any luck, will publish for the good of all of us... in the MC world.

Thanks again for your support guys..... where I'm sure that for the moment we're all in the same boat.
Cheers
 

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The ice-blue lights are a: for show purposes only, b: not road-legal (in the UK at any rate), c: partly a waste of time in energetic terms as the light produced is straying off into the UV ranges so they don't produce any useful illumination as far as your eyes are concerned.

Anything with a colour temp over 6000K is either not legal or a waste of energy (or more often both).

The science behind how eyes perceive light is quite interesting, especially in terms of sensitivity varying with the wavelength. You actually "see" things better towards the yellow end of the spectrum.
LEDs particularly are blue light pushed through a yellow filter to make it look white. The dominance of wavelengths towards the blue end of the spectrum explains why things lit up with LEDs tend to have that washed out look. The ideal in some respects is to use a colour temp around 4000-5000K although then you get into a whole different territory around lumen counts which are to do with perceived intensity as opposed to actual light flux densities.

Halogen, HID, LED: they are all compromises in one way or another. In the sphere of the present investigation we regard halogens as simply rubbish. This leads us to finding a good way to convert to one of the other solutions and, to date, a simple plug and play option with no drawbacks has not been forthcoming.

Which reminds me, I need to go try and adjust those new lights.

You are essentially correct.
But there is a difference here.
You are mostly referring to the light that is projected or the illumination of objects by this light.

It as been my observation that looking at the light itself is a different matter.
These ice blue led's are as you pointed out less filtered with yellow and so have more output then the white ones of the same format (watt for watt).

They may not be as effective at bouncing their light off of objects but if you look at the light source they will hurt your eyes more then the white ones of the same kinds.
Remember I'm not talking of headlights but running lights, not to see but to be seen.

This is photographed with SAM_1325.JPG reduced exposer;
 

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Discussion Starter #15
And the reason the blue lights hurt your eyes more is the increased near-UV component. You are just frying your retinas. They do look kinda pretty though.
The sad fact about "Being Seen" has surprisingly little to do with the intensity of lights where m/cs are concerned. Yes lights do help, especially when combined with a noisy exhaust. Even better a tone about 350Hz projected out would help even more (matches the pitch of a baby's cry) because our senses and neural wiring are tuned to detect it. Like most of us I've been in the situation, sat on a bright yellow TLR, headlights on, thunderous carbon cans booming away staring the driver right in the eyes as they bear down on you in their SUV not actually registering your existence despite you being right in front of them. The human brain is not very good at multitasking and you could have an entire Mardi Gras parade pass in front of you and yet not see it if your concentration is on that particularly nice plate of bacon and eggs your had for breakfast that morning. Just think about those adverts where they have a dancing gorilla pass through an otherwise normal scene but you don't notice it until someone points it out. Expectation of what we see plays a large part in perception and if the observer isn't expecting or aware of the concept of something right in front of them if can just end up as a pile of wreckage under the wheels of their nice cozy 4x4.

Philosophy aside and back on topic, I know there are LED conversions out there that can work. I've done one on my old BMW 535i which is nothing short of spectacular. Good focus, excellent beam pattern, and many, many times brighter than the old halogens. Sadly those same LEDs used in the tiller, whilst a lot brighter were less than perfect in terms of spread and focus.
They weren't totally awful. Low beams were good but high beam tended to send too much of the light skyward. Each different type of lamp I've tried has had some good features but so far none have been the complete package as it were. The optical surfaces in the TL light clusters are quite unforgiving when it comes to modification so it may be that a simple plug'n'play LED solution won't exist until someone tailors the lamp construction specifically to match it. Don't see that happening any time soon however as the market isn't exactly vast.
 

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I don't have much time right now...

But the best example is the red lights.
We don't use them for headlights, but they work great at being seen.

And,, I know, it's the reason I'm wearing blue blockers :).
 

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Snowy, do me a favour, just suggest for me a pair I can drop into the TL and a SV650 that do a reasonably half decent acceptable job.................................

I have Phillips LEDS in the UNO btw............
 

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Discussion Starter #18
These auxito things I've just bought are ok on low beam. Bit of a dark spot on high but they will give you a decent long range view. Also nice that they plug straight in without having to lose the rubber boots off the back of the headlights.

There is a Philips ultinon extreme offering that might be better. The shielding around the low beam emitters looks better thought out than the Auxitos. They are a bit pricier though.

Or


Lots of variations on this form coming out. One of them ought to work....
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Been playing about with these auxito lamps a bit more. No doubt that there is something of a dark spot in the near distance on the high beams. I've been mucking about with the adjustment to see if I could get any improvement but no luck other than to completely screw up the aim. I'll need to go into a shop and readjust them with a proper sighting target.

All that said, while I was doing all of this I stuck a halogen back in on one side just for comparative purposes. The results were bordering on comical. I'd forgotten just how bad halogens are in comparison and even an imperfect LED is so much of an improvement over stock there isn't much point going back. Now there are these genuine plug and play designs ie no massive heat-sinks out the back, extra ballast boxes and suchlike so you can keep the original rubber boots on the back of the lights there isn't much point using anything else.

TBH if you just wind the low beams up a bit there is almost no need for high beam as it outclasses the halogen mains by a mile even when dipped.

Due to the vendor goofing on the order I actually have a couple of spares. What I might do is see if the case could be machined a bit to cure the dark spots. Alternatively I could open one up to see if I can rejig the circuitry to give all emitters on high beam. Something for a slow day perhaps.
 
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