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Discussion Starter #1
I was cleaning out my browser bookmarks and came across TLZone. I doubt any of you remember but over a year ago some of you helped me out with some questions about the Yoshbox. I'm the guy who was trying to hack a ZX-12 ECU and found a yoshbox like connector

Anyway I thought I would let you know that I was successful with the ZX-12 and there are actually a few bikes running out there with reprogrammed ECUs. They have increase rev limits and modified ignition maps. Its still early days but I'm sure we will have the fuel maps figured out by spring.

I know so what....well in the course of this project I also found out that the same method can be used on the older Hayabusa 16 bit ECUs. Also I'm working with a guy in Finland who has successfully reflashed a newer 2006 32bit Busa ECU and a guy in Austraila who is using the same 32bit method and has pulled the maps out of a 2007 SV1000. This also apparently works with a Z1000 and a ZX-6R

Here is an example of the kind of maps we found in the ZX-12 and Busa

Sample Map Editor Screen

One of the interesting things we have found on all versions of the Denso so far is an A/B map feature. Two complete sets of Ignition and Fuel maps. Which set is used depends on if a wire in the Yoshbox plug is grounded or not.

It looks like most if not all of the 16 or 32 bit Denso ECUs can be re-mapped, re-flashed, re-programmed. I would bet good money that includes the TLs and the GSXRs. All it would take to find out for sure is to open up a TL ECU and take a look. It doesn't even need to be a functional unit.

You can follow the technical discussion here...
 

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good work dude....how finely can you map them
 

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Perhaps it's a silly question (don't want to be a dick) but what's the reason to get into this trouble if a yosh box, a mak box, a teka or a Power Commander can do the same thing? :O
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Perhaps it's a silly question (don't want to be a dick) but what's the reason to get into this trouble if a yosh box, a mak box, a teka or a Power Commander can do the same thing? :O
Good question.

First the Yoshbox and the Teka were designed to tweak or fine adjust the bike on the assembly line and is very limited in its range. It only adjusts in 3 ranges. Also you can not change the rev limit, remove a top speed restriction or modify the ignition timing using them.

While the power commander (PC) offers more range and resolution it has some problems compared to reflashing the stock ECU.

  • The PC is more expensive, especially if you want the ignition advance. You can reflash the ECU with a simple 232 to TTL converter ($20?) and some free software on the 32bit ECUs. The equipment for the 16bit ECUs is about $200
  • The PC requires a lot of room, hacking up the wire harness etc. Besides what could be more reliable than the stock ECU? Like the Yoshbox you don't need to permanently install anything on the bike
  • You still can't up the rev limit or remove a speed restriction with a PC.
  • I don't think all the PCs offers the A/B map feature either. One map for street, one for the track or no-NOS / NOS maps at the flip of a switch.
  • The PCs screw up the quick throttle enrichment or 'Virtual Accelerator Pump' signals to the injectors.
  • The PCs do not allow you to change the timing or fuel by gear position.
  • The PCs do not have individual maps for each cylinder.
  • The PCs don't adjust for Volumetric Efficiency (VE)
I think the last one is worth explaining even if it gets a little technical...

The ECU basically calculates how much fuel is injected into the engine to maintain the desired air fuel ratio. In order to know how much fuel it needs to know how much air mass is flowing thru the engine. There are two ways to do this. One is measure it with a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor that physically measure the actual amount of air or calculate it using Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP). The Denso system uses MAP

The way MAP works is they take the prototype engine, stick it on a test stand and measure how much air flows thru it at different manifold pressures, RPMs, and throttle settings. This flow map is the Volumetric Efficiency Map. Its a measure of how well the air flows under different conditions. An engine with no head on it basically has 100% efficiency. As fast as the piston goes down it fills up with air. Stick a head on it and make if flow thru valves and it obviously restricts the air flow. The design of the intake tract, Ram Air, how well the exhaust pipe scavenges, etc all effect the VE and effect it differently at different RPMs.

So guess what happens when you put an after market pipe, filters, and velocity stacks or port your head? Yes, you improve the VE but now the bikes actual VE profile no longer matches what the ECU thinks the VE should be.

Well thats what the Power Commander is for right? Well the PC maps are RPM vs Throttle and the problem is the Air mass flow is not going to be the same in 1st gear going 30mph as it is at the same RPM and throttle in a higher gear with 100mph+ of Ram Air. I think the best example of this is the Muzzy pipe problem well known on ZX-12s. The pipe has a stumble at low rpm that people find hard to adjust out with the PC.

Here is the VE map of the 12, rpm on the left, manifold absolute pressure across the top.



I've enhanced the boundary around 60 and you can see the peaks and valleys of flow as the resonance of the intake tract, exhaust and cams go in and out of phase. But for the most part if the map peaks at high pressure (right side) then it is also higher than average in the mid and low pressure (left side of map)

Look at 5000 rpm; Higher than average left, middle and right. But now look at 2000 rpm; very low flow left, average mid and peaking right. This means the stock engine configuration flowed very poorly at low MAP, at 2000 but flowed above average at higher MAP. I believe putting the Muzzy pipe on the bike fixes that dip in the map. But the ECU doesn't know that so it still runs the bike very lean at low MAP and richer than average at higher MAP at 2000 rpm.

So how do you fix that with a PC? You can richen up at low map but then it will be too rich up high or vice versa so you compromise. Something you don't have to do with reflashing the ECU.
 

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You obviously know a whole lot more about this than I do, but I'll make an ass of myself anyway :D

If the stock un-modded ECU can't cope with changes to the machinery that affect the A/F ratio (ie. it's an Open Loop EFI IIUC), then how will a mapped one be any different to just adding a PC and .djm? Stock ECU is only adjusting the fuelling based on the input from more sensors, or so it seems. At least, that's how I understand it :O

Also, gotta add a few corrections for the sake of accuracy :D ...
  • The PC requires a lot of room, hacking up the wire harness etc. Besides what could be more reliable than the stock ECU? Like the Yoshbox you don't need to permanently install anything on the bike
What else you gonna do with the space in the seat hump? Smuggle Asian families across the border? :laugh
  • You still can't up the rev limit or remove a speed restriction with a PC.
Yes, you can. Ignition module & the extra downloadable software for those models that have one.
  • I don't think all the PCs offers the A/B map feature either. One map for street, one for the track or no-NOS / NOS maps at the flip of a switch.
Yes, but you have to buy the $150 or so Multi-function hub that comes with a toggle switch for the bars. Or buy the LCD display for a few dollars more and have as many maps as your SD card allows. Let's see, at 5kb a map on a 512Mb SD card thats ... lots :D Also, the MFhub allows outputs and inputs for controlling NOS, shift lights etc :yes
  • The PCs screw up the quick throttle enrichment or 'Virtual Accelerator Pump' signals to the injectors.
You don't have to install that software and can turn it off if you do.
  • The PCs do not allow you to change the timing or fuel by gear position.
Yes, but again you need the multi-function hub, LCD display or another bit of hardware which was all getting too serious for me so I ignored it :D
  • The PCs do not have individual maps for each cylinder.
PCIIIusb does :yes

Sure the PC isn't the ultimate or perfect solution, but for 90% of riders it's got to be good enough. Not saying I'm not interested in learning more or aren't interested in a fully tweakable solution though :devious
 

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I have just bought an ECU for the purpose of carving it up, it will be hear in around a week
Il post up pickies when I get it opened up.

The TL’s maybe PROM and not flash, time will tell
 

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Pad somewherre in the manual it says the ECU swaps between Speed density (MAP & RPM) and Alpha-n (TPS and RPM). But exactly when I'm not sure. But it's still men in white coats

 

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WOW RidgeRacer that is amazing stuff... keep it coming! :thumbup
 

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RidgeGear, this is a great analysis here.... :hail
I am really lost in all you've said and it's hard to follow as my knowledge is just a scratch on the surface but it will be interesting to see what's coming...

Keep on guys... It's nice to know that we could theoritically change a few things on our ten year old bikes to make them better running....
 

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That is great stuff. A fully programmable ECU offers a lot more room for tuning than just a Yosh Box. I'll make one example: The base map of one type of Swiss TLS ECU is that bad, you simply cannot tweak it enough with a Yosh Box. So unless it can be completely reprogrammed, it is useless.

I know the ECU of the Triump SpeedTriple is quite easy fully programmable.

Who offers the guy a free TLS ECU? I could borrow one, but not give it away.

Greetings
Rufer
 

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Who offers the guy a free TLS ECU? I could borrow one, but not give it away.
All it would take to find out for sure is to open up a TL ECU and take a look. It doesn't even need to be a functional unit.
There must be one out ther to give an ECU.....
Even a toasted unit will be OK for him to find out if it can be reprogrammed....
Anyone?
 

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I'd be interested in raising the TLS Rev Limit :devious

Just to add to the discussion, the PCII allows the ignition timing to be altered but the PCIII doesn't.
 

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Got a Jappo TLR ECU I could donate ... don't think I'll ever be able to sell it :laugh was gonna swap it over when I traded the bike in and flick of the US one I got in there now cheap ...
 

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Got a Jappo TLR ECU I could donate ... don't think I'll ever be able to sell it :laugh was gonna swap it over when I traded the bike in and flick of the US one I got in there now cheap ...
I think that the Japanese ECUs have the 180km restriction (?) making it a great guinnea pig for this reason........
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The first ECU really needs to be one nobody wants anymore. You really need to expose the whole board so you can not just find the programming plug but also trace out the CPU pins to the wire harness so when you look at the software you can tell which inputs are throttle, temp, pressure etc. and which outputs are coils and which are injectors.

An ECU with a blown injector or coil channel is perfect. Its unusable on a bike but the cpu will still work to grab the code. Unfortunately nobody bothers to sell broken ECUs on eBay because they think they are worthless

I got the first Busa ECU I opened up from a speed shop that specializes in Busas.
The guy found it laying on the floor behind his bench
 

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Discussion Starter #18
That is great stuff. A fully programmable ECU offers a lot more room for tuning than just a Yosh Box. I'll make one example: The base map of one type of Swiss TLS ECU is that bad, you simply cannot tweak it enough with a Yosh Box. So unless it can be completely reprogrammed, it is useless.
Obviously if the TL can be reflashed you could just stick the US maps in it. If you have a problem with periodic pollution inspections you could use the A/B dual map feature and leave your stock maps in the B section, put your custom map in the A section and then just jump a wire on the harness when you need to get it inspected.
 

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great job hope all works out.
 

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I like it. First thing I did when the TLR showed up was pull the ecu. We do a lot of automotive tuning and I agree that using the factory ECU allows greater reliability and adjustability in 99% of cases, but when I saw that the ecu was sealed I decided to put it on the back burner. Just for comparison, when we do it to the cars, we pull of the chip, read it, find the maps and then load it onto an emulator for tuning. Once the car is tuned we burn a new chip and throw it back on the board. All because factory read/write routines tend to vary from documented specification, and even between model years. This saves us the hassle worrying if the flash routine will work, and allows the same process from old school proms through eeproms and new flash devices.
 
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