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Chief Moderator for my kids Julia & Kristen,
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Not another religious thread :banghead

FWIW, I believe we live in a fallen world and with that comes complete freedom to choose good or evil, to believe in God or not. We are adults, we get to make the choice and we get to live with the consequences. Unfortunately, these "adults" engaged in pure evil against the most helpless of all, orphaned children, as part of an organized denominational church no less. Shame on them.

Not very charitable of me to say so I suppose but honestly, but even though I am a Christian believer, I have to admit more than a bit of disgust toward the Catholic Church. I find it as an organization to be a rigid and arrogant creation of man that is particularly prone to abuse of the weak. I turned my back on that kind of church years ago, but not God. Jesus saved some of his harshest criticism for the arrogant church of his day.

Your mileage may vary of course and if anyone reading this happens to be a devout Catholic, no personal disrespect intended. My journey is not your journey. As for the atheist types, let the well deserved mocking begin...
 

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Consider yourself mocked.

But seriously, I don't think any atheist welcomes this news. Sad not funny. Every single time one of these stories comes up, or any evidence of the disastrous results of blind faith, it just upsets me and most atheists. We just want everyone to get past religion and all of its collective garbage and baggage, and live proper honest lives. No tithing, no stonings, no doing the right thing only because of fear, no doing the wrong thing in the name of shit that isn't even real...
 

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Chief Moderator for my kids Julia & Kristen,
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We are not that far apart Miles. We only disagree on the existence of a higher power. Other than that, I agree with everything else you say.
 

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I want to clarify a couple of things.

First, these "people" were no more or less prone to do these crimes because of their "faith". I think the Catholic Church covering their misdeeds definitely empowered them to do so.

Second, to characterize the people here as "Christians" or "Faithful" is to foolishly buy into the one side or the other is "evil"

We agree these are heinous crimes committed against innocent helpless victims who deserve to have justice for their suffering. The folks who committed these acts AND the folks who covered it up, deserve the full penalty of the law. I also believe child abuse is something God probably won't be too inclined to forgive.

Damn it, why do they have to mess with children, the world and some of it's inhabitants are truly horrible sometimes. I am hurt by this sort of abuse, too bad I can't pop over and "correct" it for them. I am sure there are folks over here who would gladly step up and help out some orphans by helping some offenders out of the gene pool.

Despicable and heart breaking. I am truly saddened. Tough post Ed. :banghead
 

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Maybe I misread it and what I read does not make it any better. It was my understanding that many of the victims whom were abused are now 50+ years old.

That's terrible for them as the Law will likely not do anything about it.

Assuming the abusers are still living I say punish them to the full extent of the law. If they have passed on based on my belief they have already answered for their sins.

I don't have the right to judge but as a person I do so anyways.

I agree with everyone's posts. Terrible people these days. It get's you steaming mad.
 

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No Likey No Spiders
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Discussion Starter #7
Yeah tough post for sure and I definitely don't enjoy reading stories like that. :(

I wasn't knocking anyone for believing what they believe because that's really not my place.

My point I guess was - If I had the power to give and take life and these people were so called ambassadors of my word then I wouldn't have hovered idly by while these atrocities were being committed against the most helpless of all.

The same would go for all the slaughterings that were committed in (insert name of genocide of your choosing here.) but that's another story entirely.

Now for the Catholic Church itself..........I firmly believe it should be wiped off the face of the planet, if not for the atrocities they have committed / allowed in the past then for any Future harm they may cause to the citizens of this world.

In my opinion the Vatican is nothing more than a safe house to store stolen goods.
 

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Now for the Catholic Church itself..........I firmly believe it should be wiped off the face of the planet, if not for the atrocities they have committed / allowed in the past then for any Future harm they may cause to the citizens of this world.
Thats a bit harsh Ed.
What about the folk who do not use drugs but need a crutch to face reality.

Don't forget the rape of nun's or the flat earth policy of past to breed ignorance and blind faith to the church.
 

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That sort of hypocritical shit pisses me off. The damage those ****ers do, down through the generations damages and ruins the lives of thier victims, and in some cases their victims victims. And all they have to do is ask their god for forgiveness ::coocoo.

Reminds me of something I read: a catholic priest lost his faith, and was taking religous counselling, to no avail. He hung up his....whatever it is priests would hang up;). His dilemma was this: He was given the job of talking to a Nazi war criminal, responsible for the torture, murder, rape, and medical experimentation of thousands of Jewish men women and children. Nazi was an old man dying of cancer. He talked long to the priest, and the upshot is he wanted to convert. Under the "rules" of christian religon the Nazi was able to repent, and in the name of Christ, ask God for forgiveness. He would now be welcomed into heaven with open arms once he died, and spend eternity in paradise. Under those same rules, those innocent Jewish children who were brutalised and murdered were destined to spend eternity burning in hell, because they didn't take Christ as their Lord and saviour....now some might be tempted to say, oh, but those children are innocent, and so were their parents, surely God would welcome them, and not send them off for more torture:O; tempting, but this negates the whole basis of CHRISTIAN religion - "I am the way the truth and the life, no man shall come to the father but through me" blahblahblah, or "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." If you say those innocent jewish children should get into heavan, you are negating the whole crucifiction, and all it, and this religion stand for.....Sooo, the Nazi was saved and, as a result, the priest joined the legions of the dammed:laugh What a complete cockup:lol

IMHO organised religion is not much different from the Mumbo Jumbo cultures have practised down the ages, you'd think modern man would have more sense:coocoo. I suppose imaginary friends work for some kids, and I guess it's safer than drugs and alcohol.....or is it:devious.
 

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A cult is a cult.Doesn't matter what they choose to call themselves.
 

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Yeah hard post ed

I kind of think if you read all the so called great texts Buddst, bible, jewish, koran, etc they all have the same statements in different ways ie do unto others as you expect done to you, be peacefull show respect to others and be of moral standings .....I think of churches like clubs, history and time has had one branch or another wanting mass membership and control (money land wealth) this happens even today, so if i simplfie it its like BRANDS (nike-suzuki-calven cline) etc I do belive in a higher being this i will state I do belive in the presivation of mankind with peace and balance for all.

Religion through the ages has in many ways been a seperator and a control of many civilizations for conquest. Just look around our world today its not new to see 1 faith or tribe trying to have the upper hand.

Yes I agree ed the catholic church and many other churches have a LOT to answer for in the abuse of children and the faithfull I would love to see the abusers locked up but i know this wont happen due to the fact of the various religions do cover up these crimes, and are close to the upper echilones of the law and goverment etc

To take away the inosense of a child has to be the very very worst crime = no 20 year jail time (life) no soft options for being a good prisioner just take them out the back n export them to hell i say.

Final comment from me is I dont care if ya ethinic arab jewish catholic morman etc if you show me n others respect ill always respect you.
 

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:stupid That's whats so ****ed up - underneath all the bullshit they actually share most ideals between them. They are so busy insisting they are right and everyone else is going to hell, they can't see that they agree on fundimentals:coocoo.

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but to me the god part is a bunch of superstition; no different to the Greeks, or the Maoris, or the Mayans or any other cultures' religion we now look back on as fairy stories or legends. And they all believed in them with the same fervour as modern day Christians. If you haven't already, read the second part of my last post, about the catholic priest and the nazi - shows how screwed up modern religion is:O
 

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Duke I know you agree with part of my post, but you don't agree with the other part, which agrees with Jimmy.
 

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My missus' mother is one of those kids - so no Del, you didn't read that wrong, she is 50+ and she is still dealing.

Furthermore, my missus suffered a massively ill adjusted upbringing on account of her mothers mental state resulting from the abuse.

The fact that the perpetrators are to go unnamed and unpunished is yet another example of how entirely ineffectual the Irish Govenerment is.

As for religion itself - I've read up on the topic many times. I've researched the origins, claims and beliefs of all of the major ones, and my own informed opinion is that religion started as a means of controlling society - intially for the good of themselves and all men, but ultimately for the appeasement of the scribes and the teachers.

They are all corrupt - every last one of them, and even with the best of intentions among the majority of clergy accross the board - they are still perpetuating a flawed, and closed minded view of the world.

If I were to take anything from any of them, it would be from the oldest of the all, Judaism - and what I would take from it is that every man walks his own path.

My own belief is summed up entirely in two words.

"Play nice"

Having said that - as long as I can go to bed with a clean conscience, then as far as I'm concerned, I'm all set.
 

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The Irish can't win.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

If they aren't being subjugated by the crown they are being subjugated by the church. I blame the strong spirit of the Irish, it is threatening.
 

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Just proves to me that everyone needs a way to relax, have fun, be free. Release some energy physically and mentally, be on a bike or by doing sports, making music, feel free to add.

There's a dutch comedian by the name of Hans Teeuwen who said "Power always corrupts". And doensn't it? some of them join the police because of it, some are your boss, need I go on? It's just that..

But everybody supports that in some way. By politics, by joining a team or a group, by buying at that big store just because it's cheaper. Quality over quantity changes those things, did for me anyway.

I think it's unlikely to change because humble people don't want or get in those positions.
 

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a car is a lump of metal and so is a bike.

a cadaver is a lump of meat.

a car or bike becomes animate when we occupy it and drive.

It follows that something inhabits our body to make us more than just chemicals.

All religions agree that this life force / spirit / soul lives on beyind death.

religions differ on their decree on what happens to that spirit when it ceases to inhabit a body.

even athiests agree we have a life force.

religions as stated earlier here are a bit like our bike forum . members of like belief group together and join in the sharing of their beliefs.

they may be motivated by love or by fear .

those groups as in all walks of life will be populated by a percentage which are corrupt in one way or another ,. sexually , morally , financially , violence etc.

If you take away the agenda of the group / religion there is a common ground of spiritual understanding, the religion has become an interface of expression, created by the teachers, environmentally or culturally appropriate at the time.

envornment and culture change and so too do some religions to be appropriate of the times. the essence of the spirituallity remains the same.

fundamentalists are driven to retain the religion and teachings as they were established tho this may no longer function in the present times.

society reflects the ideals of religions and the 10 commandments are perhaps the most concise rules for living and successful community.

as individuals in society or a religion we can be responsible for the greater good of all by how we act , what we demonstrate to our peers and children, and the actions we take to curb the inappropriate behaviours of others.

Tlzone is a great metaphor for a good society , and dare I say even a religion (by metaphor). we share common ground , we are benevolent of each other and we respond to inappropriate behaviour according to the severity of the misdemeanor.

As for the presence of god or the good of religion , i have two experiences to share with you.

1) I had a significant bike accident in my early 20's and had the much talked about out of body experience. It raised many questions which took many years to reconcile. further life and spiritual experiences convinced me of the presence of a higher power , tho I now believe that our own individual spirit is an integral part of that power and we all are connected in the integrated one. it is each of as individuals that stands in judgement of ourselves and creates the gap between the eden offered as a carrot by the religions. the god force is love and would never deny any of us. worthiness and conscience resides in each of us and is a choice. our higher self / spirit /soul is not human and knows us implicitly , no boundaries of deception or bargaining exist. such is the argument of our relationship with "god".

I am not a christian , not because I don't respect jesus, because I believe there are many teachers and paths. I do believe that jesus left a set of simple instructions that if followed will provide the outcome promised. So too have the other teachers.

within each of us lies the understanding and self direction to arrive at the end point , whatever that may be, we have to take the responsibility to follow it . or follow a leader.......jesus , religion or another teacher.

2) Religion and the "stuff" around it. A friend recently returned form Rome and the Vatican City as part of his spiritual journey, we talked about his confusion about religion and the structure of its place in society and of the corrrupt behaviours that exist, (the start of this thread is one such example) , What emerged is that just as we have communities with good and evil people , so they exist within religious orders, and tho these negatives exist and must be treated appropriately, the actual essences of goodnees and spirituallity are concentrated and grounded and shared with the world by the presence of such orgainisations. The overall positive benefits cannot and should not be denied, and as a global community we need to be astute to such negative and even criminal behaviours of the minority and act to stop such behaviours.

As society has progressed we are now even more aware of such indescretions and behaviours and socially more prepared to speak up , out , and act to curtail them.
 
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