TLZone Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Good Afternoon everyone. I've been a long time reader, but this is the first time posting a question. First the bike is a 1998 TL1000R. Last year I swapped a good motor into it because the original that was in it needed a lot of internal work (I had a spare from a parts bike.). It was running fairly decent, but around 5-6k on the Tach if you tried to really get in the throttle it would just bog down and wouldn't stop until you came off the throttle. If you easy into it all the way it would go all the way to the rev limiter. Recently though it has gotten a lot worse, and it will do it almost anytime you give it throttle. I have swapped the throttle bodies and fuel injection from another bike on to it and get the same result. The throttle bodies have been balanced each time. When I go to set the TPS I can't ever get it to the middle bar it's either the top bar or bottom bar, and if I can get the middle bar the bike quickly shuts off because the idle is to low even when i adjust the idle up it goes back to the top bar. It has fresh plugs, freshly balanced TBs, and good gas. I just cannot get it to start without starting fluid, and cannot get the TPS adjusted correctly. Anyone have any ideas?????

Also there is no PC on the bike, the vacuum hoses have all been checked time and time again and routed how the factory specifies to run them.

Any ideas or tips would be greatly appreciated!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,193 Posts
Welcome to the forum! :thumbup

Could be a weak fuel pump or a clogged fuel filter.
Have you checked the fuel pressure, or done the fuel flow test yet?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
hi have a cagiva navigator Tl 1000. i bought in the rain .like a duck.never tried the bike out as the rain was like bullets.
ok. the seller drop t the bike.of. he got is money not be seen again ? the next day. tried the bike out after tax and ins it.
all it would pull back had me up the tank. what have i bought? a donkey.6 week s have past.just did what as been said one this forme
new parts fitted or so.carbs injectors plugs ,,,,,,HT leads wear replaced by the last oner .just bought a ECM and a muffel.from the
dutch breakers. i have a fuel pump on its way.i removed the TP of the carbs i had on the bike will use it. the fuel filter cost £20, so i cleaned
the one on the bike.washing it out in fuel and air. lets see if this helps. getting the bike to run write .you no there was no F1 on the clocks
the TP was in the middle on the clock s . for got to say.the frunt intake on the carb was black.i have seen this on ebay TL1000 carbs .lots of testing
voltage done .did the the loop test on the wiring dealers test as they say. nothink. thank six5
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Update: I ended up tuning the bike to ear instead of using the top and middle bar, balanced the TBs and moved the TPS until the bike sounded healthy. The TP is set toward the marked line on the TB like original. I still cannot get the middle bar, but it runs like champ, pulls hard, and starts easily every time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
hi did what you did but it still misfire on number one cylinder. getting to much furling soot in plug up. plug is dry. will keep at it until i fix it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Funny, the TL1000R mantainance manual doesn’t mention tuning the TPS to 1400rpm, only to 1200rpm.
Where did the 1400rpm reference come from that is mentioned throughout the TPS threads?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,766 Posts
You sure it says 12000 rpm? Bike should idle at 1100 rpm. 2000 rpm with fast idle lever engaged.

Based on my TPS experience (bikes and cars), unless it's set significantly high or low it's not going to make much functional difference on idle and throttle performance. I guess it really depends on how anal you are about the perfect tune. Plan on taking it to the track?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
You sure it says 12000 rpm? Bike should idle at 1100 rpm. 2000 rpm with fast idle lever engaged.

Based on my TPS experience (bikes and cars), unless it's set significantly high or low it's not going to make much functional difference on idle and throttle performance. I guess it really depends on how anal you are about the perfect tune. Plan on taking it to the track?
Yeah, pretty sure idle is 1200rpm. My query is the setting up of TPS on the fast idle of 1400rpm. The workshop book doesn’t mention doing the lineup at 1200rpm and then at 1400rpm. It only makes reference to TPS lineup at at 1200rpm.
Just wondered where the 1400rpm bit came from that is frequently mentioned on TPS threads.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,766 Posts
No idea where the 1400 RPM came from, or the 1200 RPM to be honest. My hard copy (1999) Suzuki Service Manual states 1100 RPM idle and 2000 RPM fast idle.

I did mine a few years ago, so I'll recheck my manual when I get home to ensure I'm not mistake.


*UPDATE* You're right, manual does say set to 1200 RPMs for TPS sync. In fact, it says 1200 RPMs for inormal idle speed. So now I know I didn't go by the manual when I did mine, which is confusing to me, because I know I got my numbers from an official Suzuki resource. Time to go on a data hunt!


IMG_1780.JPG

IMG_1781.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Yeah, I saw one where the guy was adjusting a Red TL1000S that looks like it comes from the last century. . The maintainance manual doesn’t say anything about 1400rpm. I doubt the manual is wrong, think I’ll stick with that for the time being.
Cheers,
Chris.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,193 Posts
This may be the YouTube video that twin2 is referring to (linked below). It has been around for a long time, and it actually explains the TPS and TB Sync process fairly well.

https://youtu.be/AvK-5aQuhNs

I don't know if this video is where the 1400 RPM reference came from, but it is mentioned at the ~10 minute 25 second mark. And really, that's all it is - a reference point.

I'm not a tuner, but I'll gladly offer my two cents. :coocoo :laugh The 1400 RPM engine speed is a target to let the user know that the ECM is detecting TPS movement, because that is when the dash mark is expected to move from the center position to the upper position. It is better if the ECM detects throttle movement early, just off idle, rather than later. Late throttle detection introduces a lag into the fuel map response. Probably not a huge issue, but the goal here is to make the throttle response as smooth as possible in the lower RPM range.

If the engine were tuned to idle at some other speed besides 1200, then the dash mark would/should correspondingly move to the upper level at an RPM slightly higher than the idle speed. Again, it is just a reference point to let you know that the ECM is reading the TPS. Correspondingly, as TPS movement is detected the fuel tables are accessed, and the programmed fuel injection values come into play.

Feel free to elaborate on, or correct my understanding of this issue.

:ytiller
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
This may be the YouTube video that twin2 is referring to (linked below). It has been around for a long time, and it actually explains the TPS and TB Sync process fairly well.

https://youtu.be/AvK-5aQuhNs

I don't know if this video is where the 1400 RPM reference came from, but it is mentioned at the ~10 minute 25 second mark. And really, that's all it is - a reference point.

I'm not a tuner, but I'll gladly offer my two cents. :coocoo :laugh The 1400 RPM engine speed is a target to let the user know that the ECM is detecting TPS movement, because that is when the dash mark is expected to move from the center position to the upper position. It is better if the ECM detects throttle movement early, just off idle, rather than later. Late throttle detection introduces a lag into the fuel map response. Probably not a huge issue, but the goal here is to make the throttle response as smooth as possible in the lower RPM range.

If the engine were tuned to idle at some other speed besides 1200, then the dash mark would/should correspondingly move to the upper level at an RPM slightly higher than the idle speed. Again, it is just a reference point to let you know that the ECM is reading the TPS. Correspondingly, as TPS movement is detected the fuel tables are accessed, and the programmed fuel injection values come into play.

Feel free to elaborate on, or correct my understanding of this issue.

:ytiller
Thanks Six5, I had seen this video but wanted a detailed version for the R, so I checked the service manual which had no mention of the methods used in the video. I had my TPS adjusted at a reputed Suzuki tuner yesterday and they dismissed the high 1400rpm setting, and just did the 1200rpm. They also dynoed the bike while I was there. Seems strange I agree.
Thanks anyway for your assistance in this foggy matter.
Chris.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,787 Posts
So the bike is OK now ?

And my 1997 bike is from the last century :dowhat
Hey, I have 97 and love it like a newborn... :rotfl

I can add some info:

The 1200rpm is a value set by the manual... (which also corresponds to a map value)

The 1400rpm is arbitrary, but as Six5 puts it so elegantly, it is to see that the TPS is in fact READING and the ECU applies the map accordingly. Below are the ECU dump values...

<table type="Static Y Axis" name="RPM" storagetype="uint8" endian="big" sizey="29">
<data>800</data>
<data>1200</data>
<data>1600</data>
...
</table>

The fuel map runs in values of 400 rpm.. from 800 to 12000

It is cross referenced against a throttle position map:

<table type="3D" name="TPS Fuel Rear A (1063F)" category="Fuel Maps A" storagetype="uint8" endian="big" sizex="19" sizey="29" userlevel="1">
<scaling units="UNKNOWN" expression="x" to_byte="x" format="#" fineincrement="1" coarseincrement="10" />
<description>Map data is at bin address 0x10083</description>
<table type="Static X Axis" name="% Throttle" storagetype="uint8" endian="big" sizex="19" >
<data>0.0</data>
<data>0.7</data>
<data>1.3</data>
<data>1.9</data>
<data>2.3</data>
<data>2.9</data>
<data>5.2</data>
<data>7.5</data>
<data>9.9</data>
<data>14.3</data>
<data>18.8</data>
<data>23.3</data>
<data>27.8</data>
<data>37.0</data>
<data>46.1</data>
<data>55.1</data>
<data>64.1</data>
<data>82.3</data>
<data>100</data>
</table>

As you can see the lower values are way more "increment" and the WOT area is more "grainy".

Sorry for all the technical crap, but it is to basically to come to one conclusion...

My signature for the last like 5 years...

Listen to Six5!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,787 Posts
I had my TPS adjusted at a reputed Suzuki tuner yesterday and they dismissed the high 1400rpm setting, and just did the 1200rpm.
Six5 will be all coy, but there is literally ZERO chance that technician knows more about TL's than Six5. ZERO PERCENT CHANCE.

If the tuner is not watching for the top bar movement indicating the TPS is reading just off throttle, then he/she is not "reputed" and doing it wrong. And if he/she also wasn't syncing the throttle bodies in tandem, then again, not doing it correctly...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
So the bike is OK now ?

And my 1997 bike is from the last century :dowhat
Ha, I was referring to the quality of the video material seeing as it looks like it derived from vhs, but now you mention it your bike is from the last century!! Funny when you put it like that :)
It’s running fine. Even better since I removed the aftermarket cans, and put the standard ones back on. I will put the aftermarket cans back on when I can afford a powercommander to compliment them.
Cheers,
Chris.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
216 Posts
Ha, I was referring to the quality of the video material seeing as it looks like it derived from vhs, but now you mention it your bike is from the last century!! Funny when you put it like that :)
It’s running fine. Even better since I removed the aftermarket cans, and put the standard ones back on. I will put the aftermarket cans back on when I can afford a powercommander to compliment them.
Cheers,
Chris.
Yes I knew you where talking about the quality....
But I got to thinking....well it could very well BE from the last century LOL..
Then I got to thinking about my bike !

But hey it shure runs well for a last century bike :devious
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top