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WHAT A WAKEUP!

Dear God:

Why didn't you save the school children at ?. ..

Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96
Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97
Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97
Stamp, Arkansas 12/15/97
Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro , Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville , Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield , Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond , Virginia 6/15/98
Littleton , Colorado 4/20/99
Taber , Alberta , Canada 5/28/99
Conyers , Georgia 5/20/99
Deming , New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson , Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee , California 3/ 5/01 and
El Cajon , California 3/22/01?

Sincerely,

Concerned Student
-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,

God
----------------------------------------------------------

How did this get started?...
-----------------

Let's see,
I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
she didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK.
------------------

Then, someone said you better not

read the Bible in school,
the Bible that says
"thou shalt not kill,
thou shalt not steal,
and love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...
-----------------

Dr. Benjamin Spock said
we shouldn't spank our children
when they misbehaved
because their little personalities
would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem.

And we said,
an expert should know what he's talking about
so we won't spank them anymore..
------------------

Then someone said
teachers and principals better not
discipline our children when they misbehave.
And the school administrators said
no faculty member in this school
better touch a student when they misbehave
because we don't want any bad publicity,
and we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning..
------------------

Then someone said,
let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
and they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea...
------------------

Then some wise school board member said,
since boys will be boys
and they're going to do it anyway,
let's give our sons all the condoms they want,
so they can have all the fun they desire,
and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...
------------------

Then some of our top elected officials said
it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said,
it doesn't matter what anybody, including the President,
does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good....
------------------

And someone else took that appreciation a step further
and published pictures of nude children
and then stepped further still by
making them available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech....
------------------

And the entertainment industry said,
let's make TV shows and movies that promote
profanity, violence and illicit sex..
And let's record music that encourages
rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said,
it's just entertainment
and it has no adverse effect
and nobody takes it seriously anyway,
so go right ahead.
------------------

Now we're asking ourselves
why our children have no conscience,
why they don't know right from wrong,
and why it doesn't bother them to
kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.
------------------
Undoubtedly,
if we thought about it long and hard enough,
we could figure it out.
I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW,"
------------------

Pass it on
if you think it has merit!
If not then just discard it...
but if you discard this thought process,
then don't you dare sit back and complain about
what bad shape this country is in!!!
 

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Why is it the school's, Govt and entertainment industries fault.

Where are the kids parents? :dunno

I'm responsible for my son, not school or Govt policy. ;)
 

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So the solution to these problems is to

force religious teaching to schools?

let other people slap our kids arounds?

stop abortions (and force unwanted children onto already burdened families becuase that would make surely make everyone feel better)

limit tv shows to the brady bunch



i feel the problems, just not those solutions.
 

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I believe the point is, that the reason religious freedom isn't allowed in school (a very different thing than teaching religion) is more or less the same reason these killings occur. One might go even further and look back to the advice given by Madison, Jefferson and company regarding how education should be handled - they strongly argued that it is not a just function of any level of government but should be handled entirely by parents and private institutions. Such ideas probably sound preposterous to those indoctrinated by those currently in power who wish to justify their existence, but if you really think about it - the founders were right.
 

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Steve's got it. Instead of trying to find the person(s) to blame, why dont we ever try to find the cause? this generation of kids have little or no guidance in life, and do f'd up stuff like this as a last ditch effort for attention. Take the Columbine shooting for example. Those kids had pipe bombs, shotguns, pistols, rifles, thousands of rounds of ammo, blue prints, web pages, hand written notes ALL IN THEIR ROOMS. Now WTF kind of parents wouldn't notice this kind of shit going on?

It's not the government, it's not religion, it's not the school systems, it's the parents. you are a product of your environment. Raise your kids well and they turn out well. Ignore them and neglect their needs, and they are ****ed up. :blah

Dr. Phil out!
 

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MrTucker said:
Instead of trying to find the person(s) to blame, why dont we ever try to find the cause?
[redacted]
It's not the government, it's not religion, it's not the school systems, it's the parents.
Looks to me like you're finding someone to blame. :O

I find that a cheap way out. Society can be screwed up, but the people in that society don't have to clean up the mess because it's the parent's job to protect their kids, and not anyone else's.. Right? Can most parents do a better job? Sure.. Should they? Absolutely. But casually tossing aside any influence outside of the parents is patently naive. :rolleyes

MrTucker said:
you are a product of your environment.
Right, and that's the point ofthe original post. Society is our environment, and we have a responsibility to clean it up as a whole, not just shirk responsibility for it.

Parents to not have complete control as much as you would like to believe. When your child goes to school try and see just how much control YOU have over what's taught there. Go ahead, they might only laugh you out of the building. And don't let your Daughter say a prayer before lunch either, she'll get a visit to the principal's office.:dowhat
 

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uh ok then Bill. I'm not gonna argue and name call. All I was saying was....ah **** it, nobody listens anymore
 

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There's no denying that parents should have control and should take responsibility for raising decent and respectful children but, Crazzyy makes valid points. Popular culture has strong influences on young people which can make it hard on well-meaning parents.

You can enforce your will in the home but, when your kids are out with their friends, even if you've instilled strong moral values upon them, peer pressure will get the best of them during their weakest moments. Hopefully they won't go too far and do something that you and they will regret for the rest of your lives.

Some kids are at greater risk than others depending on their environments and we can certainly do without all of these negative influences that the mass-media overwhelms us with every day.
 

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The idea of god is ridiculous, and organized religion is a farce, keep it out of schools.
 

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MrTucker said:
All I was saying was....ah **** it, nobody listens anymore
I'm not stifliing you.. I'm partially disagreeing with you. I agree 100% with your comment that "Ignore them and neglect their needs, and they are ****ed up."

I am just suggesting that there are outside influences on a child other than their parents, and they do have an effect. ie.. I doubt that the pipe bomb kids parents were giving pipe bomb building lessons, so they had to get it from somewhere. I also agree that if thier parents were more engaged, the tragedy could have been avoided.

Sorry if I came off wrong..
 

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We all have huge penis' here don't we? We should have a tagline under hte TLZONE banner "Fourm for those with huge penises" :lol
 

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Money get's power, power gets greed and this is why we have stupid laws, bills, etc that violates our well being. The Powerful with money buy their own ticket if the majority does not.
 

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I have a better title for the thread: "How untrue"....or how about "that is total crap"......

Church and state are separated for dam good reasons....

Teenagers are overdramatic, shortsighted, overemotional, have an inflated sense of self importance, and are completely crushed if they feel they have been under-represented, overlooked , or rejected. But that is ok, nature designed em that way and if it did not work it would not have come into being....

However, if you combine that already volitile mix of traits with the utter hopelessness for their future one can see why things like this might occur now as opposed to in decades past.

As a teenager I remember feeling I probably would not make it to age 25 no matter what I did..so I went a little crazier than I otherwise would have..it is easy to see how this feeling could evolve into a "fuggit" attitude and perhaps a suicidal murder spree, after all if ya feel like you eeent gonna make it far then what difference does it make to go a little early and with a bang if you have been slighted by your peers or the "man"....the fear of the day that was being peddled in the reagan era mass media then when I was a teenager was that of nuclear anniilation....these days the fear is inflated to fever pitch on shit that really is insignificant compared to the real hopelessness causer.

What these kids do realize is that their future is being traded in for the overconsumptive lifestyle of their forebearers....ie: even a shortsighted teenager knows dam well they are going to inherit a planet with too much garbage, too many people, and a catastrophic global climate change problem among a long list of others....and that the generation before them could give a rats ass.....

That is one possible factor whether it is correct or not is debatable but that is what I am getting from my kids ( I am a teacher )....While the exact cause I suggest may or may not be exactly the case or the entire cause, the rationale IS CORRECT and I am certain that the separation of church and state IS NOT THE CAUSE or correct rationale to employ in solving the problem....

For the record students are not forbidden from praying to the god of their choosing either...No student would ever be disciplined for praying, ever. I think that crap came from some mighty whitey righty bible thumper's imagination....in fact religion in general has been the cause of more death and destruction than anything else on this earth IMHO....but I digress...

In reality schools in this country are required to give a very wide berth to all faiths...I personally will go way out of my way to accomidate any student's religious beliefs, and I have yet to meet another teacher or administrator that felt otherwise...I do this not just because it is policy but because I believe in freedom and that people have the right to believe whatever they see fit. Indeed THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND SEPARATING CHURCH AND STATE. If a school (or any other segment of state) were to impose one particular religion it would in effect exclude all others....it would then be showing unfair favoratism to members of that faith alone.....

That folks is why we told the king of england to kiss our asses back in the 1700's...because if you were not a member of his church you got screwed 8 ways to sunday...the desire for this freedom is why we are all gathered here today (in the USA), that is why our fathers and grandfathers died in the original revolution, 2 world wars, and supposedly why our brothers and sons are dying on foriegn soil today.

The mighty whitey righty bible thumping chain e mail at the start of this thread not only counters this, is ignorant, inaccurate and offensive but it also is counter-productive in finding the real source of the problem hence hindering our ability to address it effectively. This is yet another great dis-service to our young people.

Our young people need love, understanding, fairness, consistency, instruction, and some respect for the planet they are to inherit...the more the better. Not a religion of someone elses choosing shoved down their throats at school....holy taliban batman!

Sorry, but if I ever see the ignorant dick head that comes up with the kind of crap in the beginning of this thread on the street, I will be inclined to kick some ignant bible thumping ass.
 

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This is part of the trouble.

WOW, WHAT A WAKEUP!

Dear God:

Why didn't you save the school children at ?.

Moses Lake, Washington 2/2/96
Bethel, Alaska 2/19/97
Pearl, Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah, Kentucky 12/1/97
Stamp, Arkans as 12/15/97
Jonesboro, Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro, Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville, Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield, Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond, Virginia 6/15/98

Littleton, Colorado 4/20/99
Taber, Alberta, Canada 5/28/99
Conyers, Georgia 5/20/99
Deming, New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson, Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee, California 3/ 5/01 and
El Cajon, California 3/22/01?

Sincerely,

Concerned Student

-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:
Sorry,

I am not allowed in schools!

Sincerely,

God

----------------------------------------------------------

How did this get started?...

-----------------

Let's see,
I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
She didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK.

------------------

Then, someone said you better not

Read the Bible in school,
The Bible that says
"thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
And love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...

-----------------

Dr. Benjamin Spock said
We shouldn't spank our children
When they misbehaved
Because their little personalities
Would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem.

And we said,
An expert should know what he's talking about
So we won't spank them anymore..

------------------

Then someone said
Teachers and principals better not
Discipline our children when they misbehave.
And the school administrators said
No faculty member in this school
Better touch a student when they misbehave
Because we don't want any bad publicity,
And we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning...

------------------

Then someone said,
let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
And they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea.

------------------

Then some wise school board member said,
Since boys will be boys
And they're going to do it anyway,
let's give our sons all the condoms they want,
So they can have all the fun they desire,
And we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...

------------------

Then some of our top elected officials said
It doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said,
It doesn't matter what anybody, including the President,
Does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good....

------------------

And someone else took that appreciation a step further
And published pictures of nude children
And then stepped further still by
Making them available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech....

------------------

And the entertainment industry said,
let's make TV shows and movies that promote
Profanity, violence and illicit sex...
And let's record music that encourages
Rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said,
it's just entertainment
And it has no adverse effect
And nobody takes it seriously anyway,
So go right ahead.

------------------

Now we're asking ourselves
Why our children have no conscience,
Why they don't know right from wrong,
And why it doesn't bother them to
Kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.

------------------

Undoubtedly,
If we thought about it long and hard enough,
We could figure it out.
I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW"
 

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Too much caffeine Dangercell? :laugh
 

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DangerCell said:
I have a better title for the thread: "How untrue"....or how about "that is total crap"......

Church and state are separated for dam good reasons....

Teenagers are overdramatic, shortsighted, overemotional, have an inflated sense of self importance, and are completely crushed if they feel they have been under-represented, overlooked , or rejected. But that is ok, nature designed em that way and if it did not work it would not have come into being....

However, if you combine that already volitile mix of traits with the utter hopelessness for their future one can see why things like this might occur now as opposed to in decades past.

As a teenager I remember feeling I probably would not make it to age 25 no matter what I did..so I went a little crazier than I otherwise would have..it is easy to see how this feeling could evolve into a "fuggit" attitude and perhaps a suicidal murder spree, after all if ya feel like you eeent gonna make it far then what difference does it make to go a little early and with a bang if you have been slighted by your peers or the "man"....the fear of the day that was being peddled in the reagan era mass media then when I was a teenager was that of nuclear anniilation....these days the fear is inflated to fever pitch on shit that really is insignificant compared to the real hopelessness causer.

What these kids do realize is that their future is being traded in for the overconsumptive lifestyle of their forebearers....ie: even a shortsighted teenager knows dam well they are going to inherit a planet with too much garbage, too many people, and a catastrophic global climate change problem among a long list of others....and that the generation before them could give a rats ass.....

That is one possible factor whether it is correct or not is debatable but that is what I am getting from my kids ( I am a teacher )....While the exact cause I suggest may or may not be exactly the case or the entire cause, the rationale IS CORRECT and I am certain that the separation of church and state IS NOT THE CAUSE or correct rationale to employ in solving the problem....

For the record students are not forbidden from praying to the god of their choosing either...No student would ever be disciplined for praying, ever. I think that crap came from some mighty whitey righty bible thumper's imagination....in fact religion in general has been the cause of more death and destruction than anything else on this earth IMHO....but I digress...

In reality schools in this country are required to give a very wide berth to all faiths...I personally will go way out of my way to accomidate any student's religious beliefs, and I have yet to meet another teacher or administrator that felt otherwise...I do this not just because it is policy but because I believe in freedom and that people have the right to believe whatever they see fit. Indeed THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND SEPARATING CHURCH AND STATE. If a school (or any other segment of state) were to impose one particular religion it would in effect exclude all others....it would then be showing unfair favoratism to members of that faith alone.....

That folks is why we told the king of england to kiss our asses back in the 1700's...because if you were not a member of his church you got screwed 8 ways to sunday...the desire for this freedom is why we are all gathered here today (in the USA), that is why our fathers and grandfathers died in the original revolution, 2 world wars, and supposedly why our brothers and sons are dying on foriegn soil today.

The mighty whitey righty bible thumping chain e mail at the start of this thread not only counters this, is ignorant, inaccurate and offensive but it also is counter-productive in finding the real source of the problem hence hindering our ability to address it effectively. This is yet another great dis-service to our young people.

Our young people need love, understanding, fairness, consistency, instruction, and some respect for the planet they are to inherit...the more the better. Not a religion of someone elses choosing shoved down their throats at school....holy taliban batman!

Sorry, but if I ever see the ignorant dick head that comes up with the kind of crap in the beginning of this thread on the street, I will be inclined to kick some ignant bible thumping ass.
I don't think saying it is in teenagers' nature to be apathetic and emotional is enough to justify the downward spiral society is riding. What does 'if it did not work it would not have come into being...' even mean? Combining that sort of way-side irresponsibility with the ever smaller work ethic with kids today just encourages crime; saying that it is okay if you act out for whatever reason it is okay then of course people would turn to crime it is always easier to steal someone's things than to earn them.

To the statement about how seperated church and state are, read this one (http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=5658). I don't remember where I originally read the article but I couldn't find the article on CommieNN. I also was kicked out of my physics classes several times for discussing religion with another student, we weren't fighting and we weren't disrupting the class - in fact we'd finished everything and found that to talk about.

I don't mean to offend or spark huge debate but in the Koran it says that whoever is not Islamic shall be removed, in Nevada polygamists supported by faith are harboring 12 year old children for wives, how far do you actually intend to bend for religions? I know there are peaceful Islamists but there are a whole lot more who hate freedom and will do anything in their will to destroy it because it is against their whole purpose for existence, read the Koran and message. A radical catholic can be just as bad as a radical Islamist. There can't be a total cooperation between radicals it cannot happen. I am Catholic so no I am not being prejudice, I read bits of the Koran when I am at work that is why I write about it. Okay I think that is enough.

About religion causing more death in the world than anything else, I would say it has probably been used more as an excuse than the actual reason for wars. Personal gain and greed probably trump it as the real underlying reason.

Koran excerpts (it's a pretty slow night),
And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
 

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Interpol:
What does it mean when i say if it does not work it does not come into being?
Simple: Every trait of every plant and animal we see (including our own species) has been "tested" over millions of years and what did not work is not here.

Also: acknowledging the "nature" of human adolecent's is not condoning crime. with this or any problem understanding the factors involved is key to solving it. I also spent a great deal of time discussing the societal problems that are combining with this "nature" to produce these aweful acts....Quite the contrary to your saying I blame human nature, I think my whole point is that while the nature of teenagers has remained the same over milenia why is it that all of a sudden there is a spike in this horrible behaviour? Well society is what has changed....what has changed in society? Well for starters as the human population approaches the earth's maximum capacity people become more hopeless and the value of human life decreases...However, the reasons behind the degridation of society and the effects it has upon those young people who are just setting foot onto a stage that has been set by those before them are complicated and will not be fully understood much less solved here on a motorcycle internet forum.....

I merely wish to point out the gross errors in the reasoning presented in the opening post of this thread....for to believe that separating church and state, and that by not allowing religion to be institutionally imposed in our schools is to blame is stupid, irresponsible, offensive, and counterproductive. It is a grand and simplistic passing of the buck.

I won't even go into the audacity involved with actually answering a kids prayer as God....so might as well add blasphemy to the list if you are religiously inclined.

For what it is worth I beleive we probably agree on more than it may appear to you. This is just a guess but I think I had read the Koran several times before you were old enough to whipe your own ass....along with every other major religious text in the world. I assure you I am not cluelessly making my statements...and while I agree with you that greed has much to do with human conflict it pales in comparison to the role of religious belief in overall death toll....greed may start the conflict but the feeling of greed etc. gets justified in the minds eye before it comes to blows, ie: when we believe that God is on our side is when the shit really hits the fan...we as a species have a bad habit of justifying our earthly desires (greed) by invoking the name of god....a conflict over resources or for earthly gain only goes so far...but if you are fighting for "holy reasons" there is no limit to the lengths we go because on the ground facts have no meaning anymore, cruelty and death no longer mean anything in the context of religious fervor. Where one would normally stop and say "whoa, what are we doing" we now say "god wants it this way" and are able to justify ANYTHING...

In fact I believe that if we were to actually take to heart the lessons and insight provided by religion alone we would be pretty well off...If we truly loved thy neigbor/enemy etc...so you are right greed etc. really does start the ball rolling but it is only when we take religion and subvert it to our own needs that it really gets ugly...whether it be our need to justify our greed or our need to get a simple explanation for a complicated problem (like the what was in the top of this thread)...

..but again this is complicated stuff and these are just simple observations on my part and my opinion....I just wanted to make clear that my opinion is based upon sound rationale and I can appreciate a differing opinion provided the rationale used to reach it is sound...it is the canned opinions from subverted religious justifications that burn my britches...

I just think problems should be solved logically and responsibly and to pawn everything off to God is to shirk responsibility etc etc....

Oh, and you probably would have been thrown out of your physics class for arguing about sports scores too....

Voodoo: Yes, way too much coffee, but also, much passion for truth, huge amounts of passion for young people, zero tolerance for idjuts or religious nuts, and a little too much time on my hands :)
 
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