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Gauge cluster circuit help needed!

15K views 153 replies 7 participants last post by  Tombstones 
#1 ·
Was replacing the gauge cluster bulbs awhile ago with LEDs.
I couldnt find out what type of normal bulbs to get, only found results for LEDs.

Turning the bulb mount wasnt as smooth as it was with regular bulbs.
So I used needle nose pliers on the one, slipped & scraped off a circuit on the back of the gauges... :banghead :banghead :banghead

Already have a donor gauge set otw from ebay to remove the circuit from that & solder it onto mine (donor gauges are broken)

Now have an error on the gauges & cant check it right now.

Anyone know what circuit (or whatever its called) does / controls?

its the one above the bulb mount in the pic.
I believe it says C102

Tried to find the thing when it first happened but had no luck.

 
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#2 ·
Now have an error on the gauges & cant check it right now.
What is the problem?

Anyone know what circuit (or whatever its called) does / controls?
C102 is part of the 'Fuel A' circuit. Hard to tell from the pic, but did you also tore off the lands that C102 was soldered to? Because just the 'missing' C102 should not cause too much problems.

JoE.
 
#3 ·
What is the problem?



C102 is part of the 'Fuel A' circuit. Hard to tell from the pic, but did you also tore off the lands that C102 was soldered to? Because just the 'missing' C102 should not cause too much problems.

JoE.
Possibly.

I'll check the error codes as soon as it gets lighter out (damned neighbor woke me up on my Only day off in the week!)

Since you said it has to do with Fuel, im hoping thats my problem.
As the bike is running like GARBAGE~!

Basically acting like it has a fuel delivery problem.
Almost impossible to get it to stay smooth at 1200 RPMs at idle.
After fiddling with the screw by your left knee to get it at 1200, soon as I blip the throttle it hangs around 3000 rpms, until I let the screw out again.
Then most of the time the rpms drop too low & bike goes to stall.

Riding it.
I noticed at initial take off in first gear.
once the rpms get up there 7K+, the bike immediately bogs until I shift.
After I gave up riding yesterday (cant enjoy a ride with a bike acting up!)
otw home on an open stretch, opening the throttle a nice amount had mixed results.
Bike would accel slower then usual but not entirely sluggish.
& then it would randomly friggin hammer the bike forward as if I was trying to wheelie!!!
Not a Jerk & stop, but a random boost in power when on the throttle nicely.

Also noticed the oil indicator blinking (NOT the light)
Its fresh oil, filter, & filled properly.
As far as that goes, I touched no sensors & it was working fine prior to this.

hell the bike was working perfectly fine in all ways before my sorry ass had to go messing with it! ><
This specifically (the circuit) all from just replacing some friggin BULBS!~ ><


Only did two things to it that can cause a fuel delivery problem.
& I plan to recheck the other thing I did instead of riding like I planned :(

Which is to recheck the valve clearance.

All of those were fine.
The One intake was close to the max setting, but I've never had This much of a problem after setting the valve clearances before!

First I'll snag the code/s & get back to yas.
Then recheck the valve clearance no matter what, because I sure as hell cant Enjoy riding it like this~!


Hopefully the donor gauges get here quickly & the circuit swap works.
If not, I'll just have to buy another set of gauges as close to 14.9K miles as possible.

(edit)
& its not the throttle bodies or sensor.
I just got the bike back yesterday from the shop & had new tires & the bodies synced & sensor set.

The sensor wouldnt set initially because of the error code. (bar on the gauges wouldnt move to set it in the middle)
But it did after he cleared the error (should of asked him to give me the code)

Also offered to recheck them for free once I fix the gauges & recheck the valves. :hail

& the bike was acting the same way prior to the shop.
I just assumed it was the throttle bodies at first because they need to be set after adjusting the valve clearances.
 
#4 ·
Fuel A is just the fuel light I believe. Wouldn't have anything to do with the way it runs.
 
#5 ·
Correct. If the bike runs crappy, the problem is something else. The gauge cluster (even with a missing C102) should not have any influence to the ECM (only maybe if it causes a short circuit to a ECM output). I'd expect no difference if you'd just unplug the gauge cluster from your harness.

JoE.

Edit:

But it did after he cleared the error (should of asked him to give me the code)
He 'cleared' an error? How did he do that? Errors are not stored in the ECM. Switch ignition off and any possible error code is gone.

JoE.
 
#6 ·
But the fuel light works.
Worked like a charm the other day when the fuel hose was cut because the clamp cut it from me routing the one hose incorrectly.
Causing pressure on it.
Fuel leaked all over & after fixing it, had to ride about half a mile down the road to refill it.
Fuel light was blinking the entire time until I refilled it.
 
#8 ·
Well, I'm pretty sure I found the problem.
I wont say its solved until it actually is.

Rechecked the valve clearance.
& it would seem I completely messed up on the front cylinder ><

Only explanation I can come up with is I mixed up my math when it came to the exhaust clearances.
I had them set to .20 & .19.
& the one intake was at .22

The exhaust I can see, mixing up the numbers between the In & Ex.
No idea how the intake was over the max though.

As I threw away the old paper I had the numbers written down on.

Rear exhausts too.
They are within spec but on the low side.
I can & will increase those by .05mm.

I honestly thought it was only the one intake on the rear.
As I had it at the max setting, .20mm

Was surprised when I pulled the plugs.
The rear one is running Perfectly!
Looked at the front one & its lean as hell! (middle is still white as hell)

Gotta wait until Tuesday now for my buddies shop to open & snag the shims I need.

Hopefully that does it.
Should also have the donor gauges by then too (Mon or Tues)

(edit)
Also went into dealer mode on the bike before I did anything else.
Key in the On position but not running, its says Check.
But dealer mode gave no errors (C00)
 
#10 ·
Well, the problem was indeed the valve adjustment I messed up the first time.

Bought new feeler gauges since my 5 year old ones were hard to read (maybe the reason for my F up)
Running like a brand new bike again :D
Was having trouble even keeping it idle at 1200!
Now its as smooth as butter :D

Cant ride it yet as I have to leave the fairings off until I solder the replacement circuit onto my gauges board.
(if I even can)

Donor gauges (broken) sitting next to me but too dark to attempt taking my gauges off (not in the mood to lose the nuts!)

Will get that done tomorrow.
If it works, put her back together & take it for a ride.

Will update tomorrow (if its not raining)
 
#11 ·
Piece of shit is still acting up & on my last nerve!

Bike chucks at steady throttle (jerks)
Just tried it with the bike at stand still in the driveway.
Put the RPMs at 3 to 4K in neutral & held the throttle in place.
RPMs go up & down.....

Plugs are new.
Gas is fresh.
TB's are synced & sensor is set.
Even went into dealer mode & its still at the middle bar.
No error codes either.

Just finished fixing my messed up valve adjustment from a few weeks ago.
100% sure all are perfectly fine now.

Stumped & Pissed!
 
#13 ·
I only had enough back on the bike to start it up, not ride it, as it got dark out. (yesterday)
Was acting a hell of alot better after I fixed the valve adjustment.
Thats why I thought it Would be fine, but forget I have bad luck hahahaha

At idle its perfectly fine.
It did stall a couple times when I would blip the throttle at idle tho.
No more hanging rpms like before.

It did seem to lose power at high RPMs in first gear like before, but higher RPMs then before this time.
Only in first gear as I get going WAY too fast to check in any other gear.

I have to check again if the Oil indicator is blinking when the bike is running.
I know it does with the key On but bike not started yet.

Will check that now

Sorry, ALOT of shit going on and Very stressed

Today was the test ride as I had to leave the body work off to solder on the circuit from the donor gauges.... which of course did SQUAT!

(edit)
Oil indicator goes out when its started.

I'll make a video tomorrow with how its acting.
I WOULD have thought of that sooner but as I said, very stressful atm as alot of other crap is going on
 
#15 ·


(edit)
and all the jumping around is during Steady throttle.
After seeing your video, I have to ask. What is the part number on your ECM?

You say it is a 1999 TLS, and it is US spec. I ask about your ECM because my '98 TLS acts the same way when it is on the "cold" map. In your video I noticed the coolant temp gauge showed 169F degrees. The ECM does not switch over to the "warm" map until 176F. If you have the same ECM that I have (# 32920-02FJ0), you can expect that type of throttle response on the cold map and below 3000 rpm. Once the coolant temp gets above 176F (80C) mine clears up and runs fine - like flipping a switch.

Yours may be a little worse if you are running the OEM fuel mix. Mine has a PC2 and it's been tweaked to minimize the stumbles. However, on the cold map there is not much you can do for it. I know you said this TL used to run fine until you messed with the instrument cluster, but I would rather suspect, since it is relatively new to you, it took awhile for you to notice this quirk.

Mine has acted this way from day one (well, April 2000), but I have come across one other '98 TLS owner who claimed this cold map failure only began after a few years of ownership. I'll look for that thread.

If you have a differnt ECM, then there are other issues. Still, you really shouldn't make any conclusions until it is fully tested on the warm map - above 176F.

Check it out and let us know what you find.
 
#16 ·
It acted this way when it was Fully warmed up & riding around for a good 20 minutes. (acted this way the Entire time)

I didnt let it Fully warm up in the video because it was acting the same before it got to that temp as it does warmed up.
So I hit record.

and just checked it out some more.
Nothing pinched, broken, or unhooked under the tank (pretty much the only place I fiddled with anything.

& I am 100% certain it acted perfectly fine until I did the valve adjustment.

But, bad news.

As I said in the video.
There seems to be a bang, thud, possibly metal on metal contact (whatever u wanna call it) feeling in the throttle when the RPMs are jumping.

Inspected this further & it would appear to feel as if its coming from the front cylinder.

I dont want to but I think im forced to check the front valves again.
Afraid it could possibly be piston on valve contact.
So im not even starting it again until I check.

I held my hand on the rear cylinder & kept the RPMs up.
Didnt feel anything.

did the same to the front & I felt the same thing as I do in the throttle.
Like something hitting together.
 
#17 ·
It acted this way when it was Fully warmed up & riding around for a good 20 minutes. (acted this way the Entire time)
......
& I am 100% certain it acted perfectly fine until I did the valve adjustment.
OK. But I'm still interested to know your ECM # if you find the time to post it.


But, bad news.

As I said in the video.
There seems to be a bang, thud, possibly metal on metal contact (whatever u wanna call it) feeling in the throttle when the RPMs are jumping.
....
Afraid it could possibly be piston on valve contact.
So im not even starting it again until I check.

I held my hand on .... the front & I felt the same thing as I do in the throttle.
Like something hitting together.
I'm no expert in the mechanical department, but if I were to guess.....

You only feel the "thuds" when the RPMs are jumping because the fuel injection is missing and sputtering. One pot or the other is either firing, or missing, or coughing - this makes it very difficult to diagnose a real mechanical contact. Similar noises can be heard when the throttle bodies are way out of balance - there are no mechanical problems, but the system is out of balance, and the poor state of tune manifests itself in unusual noises and vibrations.

Also, from memory, in order for the valves to contact the piston, the cam has to be out by two or three teeth. The experts can confirm this (please). I'm not saying is it impossible, but if you were careful during the reassembly, it is unlikely. By all means, verify it.
 
#18 ·
Well speaking of fuel injection.
I did put some fuel injector cleaner in it the last time I filled it up.
If thats even a possibility to cause a problem (first FI bike)
If thats bad, I had no idea.
Was only trying some extra general maintenance (cleaning the fuel injectors after all this work)

32920-02FJ0
112100-0270
12v NEP019

are the numbers.

and ty for the help.

Also checked the rear plug while I had the tank propped.
Same as before, perfectly fine.
but that one was never an issue.

I'll be checking everything on the front after work tomorrow.
Not touching the rear. (if it aint broke, dont touch it)
and im sure the rear is fine.
 
#23 ·
...

32920-02FJ0

......
Aha!
I feel your pain. :laugh


Once you get your valve clearance/compression/throttle body issues sorted, I'll fill you in on the fix (band aid) for the cold map on this TLS ECM.

In the meantime, be sure to do all of your evaluating and troubleshooting of the FI system when the coolant temp is above 176F. Then the characteristics and performance you observe will be meaningful. Otherwise, diagnosing an FI problem, or making tuning adjustments while the ECM is running the cold map is a waste of time.
 
#19 ·
I am with Six5 (He is "almost always" :lol right... )

The cold map is fiddling with the fueling, but the TB's are not synced.

1. Build a Ring-In inspired manometer...



2. When you are checking the plugs, cut about a 1/4" of the lead to the plug... Give them fresh copper.

3. What is your voltage at idle? My S (97) was spotty at idle, but now with the charge mod, I am seeing much cleaner power at idle. 14V+ :devious

4. To answer your question: injector cleaner is fine. No problems whatsoever in adding it in.
 
#20 ·
No idea on any voltage as I lost my multimeter in my recent move.
I will be purchasing another one in a week when I get paid tho.

TB's are synced.
Could there be THAT much of a difference with the syncing when the valves needed more adjusting?

The shop already offered to check them again for free after I readjusted the valves.
Which I will be taking them up on the offer, also because I need to take it back for an inspection when his certifications get there.

and the TB sensor is set as I checked that last night when I put into dealer mode.

UGH all of this just to go & enjoy a ride to clear up all this other stress :banghead
 
#22 ·
Will do.
And totally forgot I had them.
Easy way to check to see if there is any problems mechanically with the front cylinder.
Will use my compression gauges I haven't touched since my first bike had valve problems.

If those readings come back good, then I'll be happy!
 
#24 ·
Warmed the bike up & the compression test all came back good! :D

Moving on to inspecting everything on & around the throttle bodies.
Tomorrow morning I will recheck the front clearances & timing.

The front plug looks as good as the rear one tho.
So im hoping its a minor thing.
 
#26 ·
PRAYING I found the problem!!!!

Remounted the boots Firmly for sure this time & stopped there until tomorrow.
(dark out & lighting sucks)

I've read a ton of similar issues on the GS500 forums (my first bike)
on people having issues because of this same thing.
Being so new to FI & the bike.
I didnt know the set up below the airbox.

There was absolutely NO way in hell it was tightened down properly!
Maybe not even put on evenly either!
As that sucker was a Pain in the ass to get on smoothly with big hands!

you all tell me.
did I strike gold? :tillis

 
#28 ·
What is the front boot soaked in? Oil? On the 1997 S there isnt an oilseperator.. Check the small piece of foam inside airbox, its supposed to catch any oil that comes into the airbox...
 
#29 ·
:stupid even though it sounds like from previous posts it's either a '98 or '99, those had the kidney shaped separator that didn't have the stuffing in it IIRC...

Take a look under you thermostat housing and see if you have one of these if you have the rounded one, or none at all, look into getting the newer squared off version. That solved all my oil issues in the airbox on my '97.
 
#31 ·
U.S.is -02F40 pre recall, and -02F41 post recall. Six5 started earlier that he had the same # is his '98.
 
#32 ·
My bad!
 
#33 ·
It's all good :cheers that -02FJ0 one didn't turn up on any lists that I've found, except one that just lists it as "unknown country"
 
#34 ·
..... that -02FJ0 one didn't turn up on any lists that I've found, except one that just lists it as "unknown country"
"Unknown Country" is an appropriate label for the -02FJ0 ECM, because it doesn't work regardless of where it is. :laugh And you are right bbv, I haven't found it on any lists either. Up to this point, I have only found this ECM to be in '98 US spec TLSs. Tombstone's is the first '99 I have come across with it. (He states the model year in an earlier thread - not this one.)



...even though it sounds like from previous posts it's either a '98 or '99, those had the kidney shaped separator that didn't have the stuffing in it IIRC...

......
:stupid No doubt the oily front airbox boot is due to the crankcase vent system. My '98 had the kidney shaped separator. IIRC, the newer style with the mesh inside wasn't released until '01.



PRAYING I found the problem!!!!

Remounted the boots Firmly for sure this time .....

There was absolutely NO way ...it was tightened down properly!
Maybe not even put on evenly either!
......

you all tell me.
....
As stated by the others, the oil around the front TB airbox boot is from the crankcase breather/vent. It makes a mess (as you found) but it is not causing the symptoms you are experiencing. If enough oil goes into the TB then, yes, it will run poorly, but it is generally not responsible for the poor throttle response at low RPMs.

Also, on some TLS engines the airbox can be difficult to fit to the front TB - usually due to the bracket at the front. Mine is that way. Obviously, an oily boot doesn't help the situation.

Unfortunately, the disconnected airbox boot is not the cause of your stumbles. Any suspected vacuum leak will be BELOW the butterflies. Any air coming into the engine ABOVE the butterflies is still metered by the throttle, and therefore not technically a vacuum leak.
 
#36 ·
Took it apart again for the LAST time until its fixed!
Sick & tired and taking the fairings & windscreen off so much (road testing purposes)

I found no problems at all.
TB mounts are fine.
All the hoses are in perfect shape & connections.

In my own process of elimination, im left with two possibilities now.

Fuel filter, although it doesnt seem it could be that.
It was running better this morning & filled it with fresh gas.
Started acting up again early in the afternoon when I got stuck going in slow in grandma traffic.

Only other explanation I can come up with, are the fuel injectors.

& I went over the front valve clearances & timing again, all are good.

Made a video looking over things if that helps at all.

https://youtu.be/YQCqZEDQRFw

Am I missing anything in the video?
Is there anything I need to look at that requires the Removal of the throttle bodies???
All I seen under them is mostly coolant hoses.
rest of the hoses connected to the TBs were in view.

(edit)
Im also just going to take the throttle bodies off & clean every nook & cranny I can inside & out.
 
#37 ·
......
It was running better this morning & filled it with fresh gas.
Started acting up again early in the afternoon when I got stuck going in slow in grandma traffic.
Can you elaborate on this comment please? How is it that it 'started acting up again' when in post #16 you said, "It acted this way when it was Fully warmed up & riding around for a good 20 minutes. (acted this way the Entire time)"

I thought this stumbling problem was a regular feature of its performance now, and not an intermittent condition. Did I miss something?




....
(edit)
Im also just going to take the throttle bodies off & clean every nook & cranny I can inside & out.
Don't waste your time on cleaning the TBs just yet. They don't look that bad.

Did you, or someone else, balance the TBs? If you did it, and you have the tools, it would be time well spent to recheck them. If you don't have the tools, your time could be better spent on building a home made manometer (vacuum balance tube) like the one rxf610 pictured in post #19. I say this because the video you put up in post #14 really sounds like a combination of the 'cold map stumbles' and TBs that are not balanced.

Have you watched the TL throttle body sync video yet?
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video...v:v&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&hspart=iry&tt=b


Learning how the FI system works is half the battle in diagnosing the various problems that come up.
 
#38 ·
After remounting the air box properly last night & finishing it up this morning.
The symptoms SEEMED to greatly lessen.
(that was a short ride this morning)

came home, shit, showered, & shaved.
Then went out for a ride.

Soon as I got into traffic at low speeds & steady throttle, the bike started bucking again as bad as it was before.

It might have Seemed fine this morning because I never hit traffic or got stuck staying in 2nd going only 25 / 30 mph.

and a bike shop did the work for me on the TB's and sensor.
Since the bike was still acting up afterwards, he offered to recheck them for free once I got the valve clearance 100% properly in spec this time.
I thought they were in spec when he did the work, only to recheck them Afterwards & find out they were not.
Thats when he offered when I started bitching on FB about my mistake hahaha

Could they Really be THAT out of sync from the valve clearances being wrong when he did it?

I have a Motion Pro sync tool.
Blue fluid type.

Bad part is, the fluid got sucked out when I was syncing my old super magnas carbs.
Also lost some hoses, connectors, & the little metal caps that lessen the vacuum.

Will look up how much the replacement kit is as I would rather do it on my own.
as yes I have watched that video quite a few times actually.
I planned to do it myself all along until the shop gave me a quote that was pretty cheap, along with tire mounting.
which only cost me $158 for two tires mounted, the TB sync & sensor

(edit)
screw it, i'll just make my own home made one! (sync tool)
I cant afford to waste $$ on the motion pro, only to have the fluid get sucked out again.

I'll just go to Lowes, get a long ruler, & tubing.
Then just use some anti freeze I have left.

(edit)
this one.
cant beat $4 LOL

https://youtu.be/iG8oM-XcmeM
 
#39 ·
$4.33 for my Dual hose sync tool :D (already had the antifreeze)

Forgot why I didnt make one sooner....
All the damned bikes I had before this that needed carbs synced needed 4 hoses & I didnt wanna bother.

Needing just two hoses connected, I can just leave it as one long hose & loop it around the bottom like the video I posted above.
That way I dont even have to measure fluid & make sure I get it 100%.



and I found the link about the cold mapping problem.
if im remembering correctly about it being mentioned.
(tooooooo much going on thats on My back, so my heads all over the place)

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/suzuki...12-tls-cold-mapping-question.html#post1397032

If that was what was mentioned.
I'll just snag a 2nd thermostat for it.

Will probably check the throttle body syncing tomorrow after work if its not raining.

Praying they are WAY off~!
I just want to Find the problem already!

If they are fine, moving to checking out the fuel injectors while I wait on payday to buy another meter to check electricals.
 
#40 ·
TB sync tool is done.
So im out checking over all the tubing, making sure everything is hooked up right before I start the bike up & check the sync.

& I found some irregularities.

Vacuum Control Solenoid valve.
In the diagram in the manual.
the Top hose on that is supposed to go to the bottom of the air box.
Those two hoses on that part were basically backwards.
Bottom hose was going to the bottom of the air box.


Out to continue making sure everythings connected RIGHT & still check the throttle body sync when its warmed up
 
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