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Discussion Starter #1
This on my 2000 TL1000R w/20k miles. Bought new in 2000. Replaced the fuel pump three years ago, the motor brushes on the factory pump had disintegrated.

Following some great threads, analytics all around ... I created a troubleshooting punch list from those threads and went at it.

Wondering if there is a short answer to this that perhaps someone else had experienced.
ECM not pulling Yellow/Blue wire low to near zero volts
Is this the result of a known issue that develops over time?


Key on, kill switch on, stays at 12.9v
Key on, turn kill switch off, goes to 0.0v
Key off, measures 0.0v

Followed all the checks as listed by Six5 among others, thank you, including:
- removing and inspected the fuse/relay block from the side of the intake duct to look for/at corrosion/connections - good
- removed and inspected starter relay block to look for/at corrosion/connections - good
- tested the FPR off the bike - good
- TOS checked
- wires checked for continuity, fuse / FP relay / starter relay

One last observation ... I noticed a few months ago that the 3 seconds for pump prime became intermittent that is, at random times after the 3 seconds passed, with key on, the pump would keep running and not shut off. This was when the bike was cold, or hot w/o an attempt to start it. Again, sometimes it would work normally getting the 3 second prime then the pump would shut off, other times it would just keep pumping w/o shutting off. Pump works fine but not when connected through the factory connections.

I told myself I was going to make this a simple thread lol. Ask me what time it is ... and I'll build you a clock.

Not a head banger by any means. Thanks
 

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youve told us the observations but what is the problem you are dealing with
 

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T.....
ECM not pulling Yellow/Blue wire low to near zero volts
Is this the result of a known issue that develops over time?

......
One last observation ... I noticed a few months ago that the 3 seconds for pump prime became intermittent that is, at random times after the 3 seconds passed, with key on, the pump would keep running and not shut off. This was when the bike was cold, or hot w/o an attempt to start it. Again, sometimes it would work normally getting the 3 second prime then the pump would shut off, other times it would just keep pumping w/o shutting off. Pump works fine but not when connected through the factory connections.

....
A nonfunctional Yellow/blue control line is not something that fails with time, per se. However, some ECMs have been know to fail in that manner. The drive transistor inside the ECM stops working and is no longer able to pull the voltage low on that terminal to turn on the FP relay. I have an ECM like that in my shed right now.

Still, before we jump to any conclusions, there are elements in the loom that could cause a similar condition, so it not actually be an ECM failure. However, if any of these other issues were the cause of the problem, an error code should be generated, and the classic "FI" icon would be displayed in the LCD window. If no error code appears after key on or after cranking the engine over for five seconds, the chances are good that the ECM's fuel pump control output has failed.

The intermittent fuel pump activity you have experienced with just the key on could be due to an intermittent connection in a loom wire or a switch. Or maybe those are the symptoms the pump control circuit in the ECM actually failing. IDK. It is difficult to say emphatically without spending some time with it.

See page 4-27 in the manual for the conditions that can stop the fuel pump enable, as well as the associated test sections for the specifics.

TLR 4-27_highlighted by Tony Six5, on Flickr


If you find that the systems in question are functioning properly and not preventing the ECM from enabling the FP relay, then all is not lost. Even with this sort of ECM failure, the fuel/injector system can be made to function, but it loses the ability to shut off in the event of a tip over.

Have a closer look and let us know what you find.
 

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If no error code appears after key on or after cranking the engine over for five seconds, the chances are good that the ECM's fuel pump control output has failed.

The intermittent fuel pump activity you have experienced with just the key on could be due to an intermittent connection in a loom wire or a switch.
Once (if) you get to this stage get a multimeter and start from the fusebox and work your way along the loom. Check the input into fuse 5 (light brown) with the ignition on, then check the output (dark brown). If you get readings on both of these then check the orange/blue going into the fuel pump relay. If you have a reading there then try the yellow/red wire leaving the fuel pump relay, then check were it goes into the fuel pump. By this time you should have located the drop where there's a break in the circuit.

Fuel System.png

This is a TLS diagram, but the colours/locations are all the same minus the two extra TLR injectors :laugh

If you have confirmed the ecu is living (as Six5 outlined above) and you have found where the break in the circuit is then use a length of wire with a dab of solder to stiffen each end to bridge out that section. If you do that and everything works then you have found your culprit.

Report back.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
youve told us the observations but what is the problem you are dealing with
imagine that lol ... thank you,

- Do not hear the relay click as before (as mentioned, works bench tested)
- Fuel pump does not come on
- F1 shows on display
- Dealer mode shows c41
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Six5, as mentioned to The Ring-In, there are error codes.

Thought it odd the pump always worked, and again, the 3 second prime shut off became intermittent.
Thank you for page 4-27 ... will go through that diagnostic.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If you have confirmed the ecu is living (as Six5 outlined above) and you have found where the break in the circuit is then use a length of wire with a dab of solder to stiffen each end to bridge out that section. If you do that and everything works then you have found your culprit.

Report back.

Thank you for the diagram and the additional input. Will work through each of these items and "report back"
 

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....
- Do not hear the relay click as before (as mentioned, works bench tested)
- Fuel pump does not come on
- F1 shows on display
- Dealer mode shows c41
The c41 error code provides further confirmation that the FP control line is failing (has failed).
I say this because you previously stated:
The fuel pump works on the bench.
The FP relay works on the bench.
The Orange/Blu wire has 12V on it (implied from your tests up to this point).

If no other error codes are displayed, then that nearly insures that no other system is preventing the ECM from commanding the FP to run. And that agrees with what you are seeing.

Notice in CrashB's fuel pump diagram: The Yellow/Blu wire is the control line from the ECM. It should activate the FP relay, which then connects the Orange/Blu wire to the Yellow/Red wire - providing power to the fuel pump and injectors.

The ECM also monitors the Yellow/Red wire to 'know' if the system is functioning. Since it sees no voltage on the Yel/Red wire, it generates the c41 error. So then, the ECM is issuing the fuel pump command internally, and looking for the result, but it doesn't know that the output drive transistor has died (or there is a break in the Yellow/Blu wire).

Still, verify the continuity of the circuits with Crash's suggestions and let us know what you find.
 

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I may have the same issue on my '97 S. I'm going to re-check everything this evening. Is there a way to repair the output drive transistor?
 

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I may have the same issue on my '97 S. I'm going to re-check everything this evening. Is there a way to repair the output drive transistor?
You HIGHLY LIKELY don't...

I have NEVER seen/heard an S transistor in the ECU go. I have heard of several R's... and my personal R ECU was also a victim...

Start a new thread. We can fix it...

Apex69,

Pierce the Yellow/Blue wire with a needle.

Then short the needle to ground... right there on the subframe is a good place...

The pump should now RUN and ALWAYS RUN with key on kill in run position... (a la... no 3 second prime, just go go go).

The bike SHOULD start and run (and keep that c41 code, but run nonetheless).

Unfortunately the only "fix" is a new ECU. I was going to make a "fix" but it just was too cost prohibitive and complicated.
 

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rxf610, I thought you had that cooking on the back burner. ???

Why is it so costly? The hardware? Or time required to engineer it?
OH, I love cooking....

Well, it's "both"... and I offer my engineering skills free to the forum (and especially you!) ALWAYS.

So here is the problem:

At a minimum, I need to monitor / splice into:
Hot 12 (to leave Arduino hot, so it doesn't require dead time... then program it to sleep on key off, blah blah blah )
Ign 12 (to trigger Arduino to start "start" sequence )
FP Yel/Blue
TOS
Switch Kill Line (to trigger kill signal)
Start button line ( to turn pump on during crank)
And prob more!

It is basically asking the basic user to solder into like 10 wires... Just not worth it...

If you think different. Like I said, free engineering time. Always and forever for you!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi All …

I know it’s been a while … life happens and just last night was reading up so I could analyze this morning.

Back on post 6 of mine I mentioned 3 second prime became intermittent. Should have clarified that when three 3 second prime was not working, not working meant, that the pump would work, come on and constantly run … like grounding the yellow/blue wire to chassis. The other observation … during this intermittent period when it functioned with the 3 second prime, you always heard the relay click . When it was power on, the pump came on and stayed on, no prime.

The pump stopped coming on all together.

I walked through Six5’s post from 4/1 for the self-diagnosis. Then followed CrashB’s tutorial through each sequence of the loom but did not find a break. Then Six5’s analysis on 4/2 of my later posts. I followed rxf610’s simple jumper instruction and it functioned just as he stated. With a jump from yellow/blue to ground, turn the key on, the pump comes on (no 3 second prime). And while the key is on (power on) I can turn off the pump with the kill switch.

Is this likely the result of inevitability? An ECM drive transistor gone bad? Trying to think through the period of time, oh let’s say about 4 months, where the pump would come on and just stay on. I rode it 5 or 6 times like that. Would that be the symptom of that failure mode starting to occur? Wondering if any others that had an issue experienced at first, no 3 second prime with the pump staying on then later on complete failure? The transistor in the ECM would fail because of shorting, inrush current, solider joint on circuit board?

What do we know about a drive transistor in the ECM? Can the ECM be opened? Is that transistor board mounted and potted?

Happy Mother’s Day to all those Mothers with people on here helping me out!
 

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I don't really have any answers for you apex. Just a couple observations.

......
With a jump from yellow/blue to ground, turn the key on, the pump comes on (no 3 second prime). And while the key is on (power on) I can turn off the pump with the kill switch.


In this configuration, the kill switch turns off the pump because it cuts power to the Orange/Wht wire (ignition & fuel supply) which is the "positive" side of the coil in the FP relay.



Is this likely the result of inevitability? An ECM drive transistor gone bad? Trying to think through the period of time, oh let’s say about 4 months, where the pump would come on and just stay on. I rode it 5 or 6 times like that. Would that be the symptom of that failure mode starting to occur? .....
The transistor in the ECM would fail because of shorting, inrush current, solider joint on circuit board?


Difficult to say if those conditions are typical of the failure mode.
:O I have never experienced a failure personally. I've only seen them after the FP output has failed.

My guess is that the component itself has failed, rather than merely a bad solder joint, but again, it is just a guess. From my experience with Japanese products, they are pretty careful about the quality of their solder connections.



What do we know about a drive transistor in the ECM? Can the ECM be opened? Is that transistor board mounted and potted?
....!
I'm sure the transistor is board mounted. However, where it is on the board and how difficult is it to get to - remains unknown.


The photo below is copied from the Stock ECU reprogrammable? thread.

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/performance-enhancement/92276-stock-ecu-reprogrammable.html

The entire board is clearly encased in some sort of potting material. It is not easy to get to, but some have successfully gained access to the eprom and other components.

 

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Discussion Starter #15

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Discussion Starter #16
Final Thoughts

Still working on this issue. I've gone through and read many of the posts that should have kept me from posting a single thread on this. Every voltage nook and cranny, and troubleshooting fault analysis is on this forum prior to my post LOL.

Between Six5, CrashB, The Ring-In, among a few others including, rxf610, it's all here. It's just sifting through all the threads and using the proper search terms. However what I found interesting is people actually did find solutions and they varied from issue to issue.

In reading some of those threads, I began to compile what the symptoms were, pairing them with their solutions. Going back to frx610's post in this thread I followed this:

Ground the Yellow/Blue wire to the sub-frame. The pump should now RUN and ALWAYS RUN with key on kill in run position... (a la... no 3 second prime, just go go go). The bike SHOULD start and run (and keep that c41 code, but run nonetheless). Unfortunately the only "fix" is a new ECU. I was going to make a "fix" but it just was too cost prohibitive and complicated.


So that worked as I've mentioned, grounding the yellow/blue to chassis. With the kill switch in the off position, I turn the key on, then when I turn the kill switch to run ... the relay clicks and the pump runs and just keeps running. I can turn the pump on and off with the kill switch. It starts and runs fine. All my connections are spotless. No wear through anywhere on any of the looms. Unplug the TOS when running, the bike will shut off in about 5 seconds, but will not work when connected with bike running and rotate to 60° as designed.

So as frx610 states, the only "fix" is an ECU. I did read a couple of threads where replacing the ECU did not resolve the issue however, they had not gone through everything as thoroughly as they should have and eventually found the problem not ECU related. Would this still be the case?

I am going to temporarily add a normally closed 45 degree tilt switch in-between the yellow/blue wire from the back of the relay plug, and chassis ground. If the bike goes over it will disrupt the ground circuit shutting off the pump. Not desirable but I am not sure I'm ready to purchase an ECU yet. As Six5 mentioned in another thread to someone who had purchased an ECU from eBay, the transistor that drives the voltage down could be shot in that ECU even though it came out of a good running bike. No history of that unit.

Any thoughts appreciated and thank you for all the detailed posts throughout this forum. :yes

Apex
 

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I appreciate your thoroughness and compilations Apex. :thumbup Maybe they will help someone down the road.


Still working on this issue. ......
... Unplug the TOS when running, the bike will shut off in about 5 seconds, but will not work when connected with bike running and rotate to 60° as designed.
I'm not surprised on this point. Mine behaved the same way. A micro-thin oxidation layer accumulates on the terminals inside the TOS, and the weight of the shorting ring is not always enough to break through to make contact.


So as rfx610 states, the only "fix" is an ECU. I did read a couple of threads where replacing the ECU did not resolve the issue however, they had not gone through everything as thoroughly as they should have and eventually found the problem not ECU related. Would this still be the case?
I doubt it. Without reading through this thread again, I think you have covered all the bases.

What were the issues the others overlooked? And haven't you checked them already? :O


I am going to temporarily add a normally closed 45 degree tilt switch in-between the yellow/blue wire from the back of the relay plug, and chassis ground. If the bike goes over it will disrupt the ground circuit shutting off the pump. ....
I think that's a good idea. :idea

Do you have a switch in mind already? Can you post a link? Will it endure normal riding vibrations?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
More Thoughts

I appreciate your thoroughness and compilations Apex. :thumbup Maybe they will help someone down the road.
Exactly ... I am surprised at how many have similar issues that are related to this in general.


I'm not surprised on this point. Mine behaved the same way. A micro-thin oxidation layer accumulates on the terminals inside the TOS, and the weight of the shorting ring is not always enough to break through to make contact.
Not mentioned, I disassembled the TOS ... micro-thin you say? I took a look at the contacts with a rather nice magnifying glass and really did not see anything than the very slightest of tarnish like when copper starts to loose its luster. Took a very fine small wire brush and cleaned them. No change


I doubt it. Without reading through this thread again, I think you have covered all the bases.
Agreed ... still wondering if what rfx610 stated would hold true.


What were the issues the others overlooked? And haven't you checked them already? :O
Checked them. Just two of the other guys found the following ... one of them found a brown wire a few inches from the blade fuse box on the right side at the air duct. He stripped back the loom and found a hot spot on the wire that discolored the sheathing and embrittled the copper wire. He replaced that section and was fixed. Another was a corroded terminal at the large white junction on the left side front at the faring. He replaced that and all was good. One of the reasons that if grounding the yellow/blue wire creates a fuel pump relay click, the bike runs and all the voltages check then is it what rfx610 said.



I think that's a good idea. :idea
Do you have a switch in mind already? Can you post a link? Will it endure normal riding vibrations?
I have several in mind, none in possession and no part numbers yet. Some of the manufacturer data would suggest that their durability testing would yield good results. Honestly, I would like to test these. The normal riding vibrations can be isolated with a low durometer silicone rubber pad or sleeve. The "noise" that is the vibration, coming from normal riding could create a nuance condition triggering short intermittent on/offs, on/offs. This too can be remedied by the tilt switch des:deviousign that is, two inner bearings that server to cancel out that input frequency (harmonic) or vibration. A mercury tilt switch is a better option against vibration. Not my first choice but an option if it has the proper construction. Back at work tomorrow will allow me to dig into it more and hopefully can post up some info. I'm surprised that rfx610 hadn't already looked into this since he likes to cook. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Not mentioned, I disassembled the TOS ... micro-thin you say? I took a look at the contacts with a rather nice magnifying glass and really did not see anything than the very slightest of tarnish like when copper starts to loose its luster. Took a very fine small wire brush and cleaned them. No change
Yes initially no change, then ..... this time, with the bike running, yellow/blue wire from back of relay plug grounded to chassis as before, with the cover off of the TOS, I can consistently shut the bike down with the TOS only IF ... I hold the ring up against the contacts. Otherwise rotating the the TOS and letting it sit there no matter which side will not shut the bike off. I did 5 or 6 times after resetting the TOS, letting it sit then after a minute with the ring sitting on the contacts then I simply applied a little pressure and the bike shuts off.

As I understood the TOS should not work with the yellow/blue grounded. I do get the expected TOS error code c23. A matter of resistance but did not measure any value outside the scope of shop manual values. I am baffled :O
 

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Yes initially no change, then ..... this time, with the bike running, yellow/blue wire from back of relay plug grounded to chassis as before, with the cover off of the TOS, I can consistently shut the bike down with the TOS only IF ... I hold the ring up against the contacts. Otherwise rotating the the TOS and letting it sit there no matter which side will not shut the bike off. I did 5 or 6 times after resetting the TOS, letting it sit then after a minute with the ring sitting on the contacts then I simply applied a little pressure and the bike shuts off.
:yes Yep, this is identical to the conditions I observed when I was testing the TOS on my TLS.

That's why I said "micro-thin." It is not a layer you can see, but it is enough to prevent electrical conduction with only the weight of the brass ring in the TOS. Therefore, it is a gamble if the TOS will really work when you need it to. :coocoo



As I understood the TOS should not work with the yellow/blue grounded. I do get the expected TOS error code c23. A matter of resistance but did not measure any value outside the scope of shop manual values. I am baffled :O
While I couldn't find where it is stated in the manual, I suspect the ECM is reading the TOS signal (when you force a connection with the ring) and it attempts to shut down, not only the fuel delivery system, but also the control pulses sent to the injectors and the ignition coils, thereby stopping the engine.

So then, in your case, even though the pump remains on, and the fuel rail is pressurized, the engine stops because the ECM cuts ignition and injector activity. That's my guess.

:ytiller
 
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