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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Good day,

Hope all is well.

After a recent purchase I decided to change the look of my TLS, as it was kinda disgusting (drove fast so nobody could see how bad it looked :p).

Long story short; everything was working 100%, no troubles starting, no bogs or sputtering (after Yosh Box tuning and dreaded coil short), until now.

I started to assemble the bike and wanted to fire up the lady before putting together all the fairings etc, but no go.
- Fuel pump primed as usual, but did not reprime after cycle.
- Kill switch on and of and it reprimes.
- Few struggles later, no priming.
- Fuel pump test OK, no "clicking" at the relay side.
- Swapped out Fuel pump relay and side stand relay, no difference.
- Bought 2 new relays, no difference. Sometimes it primes, sometime not, but not a single prime after cycle.

The following is what I've done thus far to try and sort out the problem:
- Checked all of the fuses (Front side as well as Starter Relay)
- Check ALL connectors for gum and stuff, cleaned it all out, no difference
- Got C42 error after few seconds of turning over, got 100ohm at ignition switch with no difference when wiggling/turning/pulling the wiring, so I put a 100 ohm resistor between O/R and ground just to be sure, no difference
- Pulled the whole harness and again inspected every "connection" (Low budget isolation tape ones), no difference
- 4 Pin connector at Starter Relay did not have a connector, only female terminals, replaced all just to be sure
- I checked and got 12v at coil(s) after kill switch set to on

Now, one thing that is bugging me at the fuel pump relay which I cannot seem to comprehend;
- I get constant 12v at O/Bl - (Pin 30)
- I get 12v after kill switch set to "ON" at O/W - (85)
- I get about 0.02 at Y/R (obviously because it has not yet been switched) - (Pin 87)
- Confusing one is the Y/Bl, measuring 12v constant after kill switch is set to "ON" (Pin 86)

Isn't the Y/Bl suppose to be the "Ground" signal from the ECM that controls the prime as well as to constant "Ground" when bike starts running?

I'm so confused and saddened at this moment I have no idea what to do :(

If anyone could perhaps share their experience or perhaps give some opinions as to where to look, I would REALLY appreciate it :/

Sorry for the long post :boring, please take this (potato) to sooth the eyes :p
 

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....

Now, one thing that is bugging me at the fuel pump relay which I cannot seem to comprehend;
- I get constant 12v at O/Bl - (Pin 30)
- I get 12v after kill switch set to "ON" at O/W - (85)
- I get about 0.02 at Y/R (obviously because it has not yet been switched) - (Pin 87)
- Confusing one is the Y/Bl, measuring 12v constant after kill switch is set to "ON" (Pin 86)

Isn't the Y/Bl suppose to be the "Ground" signal from the ECM that controls the prime as well as to constant "Ground" when bike starts running?

I'm so confused and saddened at this moment I have no idea what to do :(

....
Good post Henri, and nice detail.

Welcome to the Zone! :thumbup

You measurements are correct, and it sounds like you have a good understanding of how the fuel control system should work.

The key player that is missing is the Yellow/Blue wire. As you noted, it should go low for 3 seconds when you key ON (and the kill switch is ON too).
Then, when the start button is pressed, it should go low again. If the engine starts, it stays low. If the engine does not start, it goes through another 3 second prime cycle, then goes high and waits for the start button to be pressed again.

Early on you said that it was priming when the kill switch was cycled, is it still?


This statement is confusing me. Could provide some more details about it?
"Sometimes it primes, sometime not, but not a single prime after cycle."


You may have an intermittent connection in the kill switch or the ignition switch.

Also, it would be beneficial to verify continuity of the Yel/Blu wire back to the ECM connector.

If the Yel/Blu wire has stopped going low completely, it may be the output from the ECM has failed. First be sure there are no error codes being generated.



I was going to refer you to post #6 in this thread, but I think you are past that point.
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/suzuki-tl1000r-tl1000s-forum/127388-fuel-pump-wont-prime-tl1000s.html

Let us know what you find with these suggestions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, glad to be here :)

Six5 said:
The key player that is missing is the Yellow/Blue wire. As you noted, it should go low for 3 seconds when you key ON (and the kill switch is ON too).
Then, when the start button is pressed, it should go low again. If the engine starts, it stays low. If the engine does not start, it goes through another 3 second prime cycle, then goes high and waits for the start button to be pressed again.
Yes, that is how I understand it should work. I have a Yellow/Green wire (It might be blue, but I am unsure). The reason I "trust" this wire is due to the fact that the bike was working beforehand with this wiring.

Six5 said:
Early on you said that it was priming when the kill switch was cycled, is it still?
It does for a few times, and then nothing. 2 hours later, nothing, then 10 min on, it primes again. Quite intermittend

Six5 said:
This statement is confusing me. Could provide some more details about it?
"Sometimes it primes, sometime not, but not a single prime after cycle."
As far as I understand, as soon as you try to start the bike, or at least press the starter button, the fuel pump should prime again. Obviously when the signal from the Crank gets to the ECM it will let the pump run until the motor is again not turning, priming again.


Six5 said:
You may have an intermittent connection in the kill switch or the ignition switch.
I Tried to check to the best of my ability whether a connection is bad that side, but I have no "flickering" of any lights on the cluster. I know the error code only shows after the kill switch is set to on, beforehand it will display "Check". I did try to see whether this fluctuates, but it does not :/

Six5 said:
Also, it would be beneficial to verify continuity of the Yel/Blu wire back to the ECM connector.
I Followed the wire I have as signal back to the ECM, and it does have continuity. I also tried to wiggle it specifically to see whether the relay would click, but no avail.

Six5 said:
If the Yel/Blu wire has stopped going low completely, it may be the output from the ECM has failed. First be sure there are no error codes being generated.
Other than the C42 I had, none. I am aware that when the engine turns for about 4 seconds and something went wrong, another error code will be shown. I'll try to see if I get a different one.


Six5 said:
I was going to refer you to post #6 in this thread, but I think you are past that point.
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/suzuki-tl1000r-tl1000s-forum/127388-fuel-pump-wont-prime-tl1000s.html
I actually used that thread as part of my investigation, but it does not seem that someone else had the same type of ghostly problem.

If the signal does not get generated, or sent, would it perhaps mean I have a ECM that went bad overnight?

PS. Any chance you or someone could help me pinpoint the Yel/Blue on the ECM connector? Pin numbers are a bit difficult...
 

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save the image to your computer then you can zoom in to see all the details. When I get home from work I have diagrams of all the block connectors aswell that I will post.

Is the fuel pump relay triggering? I had a similar issue with my TLS that I finally traced to faulty wiring.

Put a multimeter to the yellow/red at the fuel pump and turn the ignition on and let us know what the reading is there.

How I eventually fixed mine was by taking a 2m length of 18awg wire with a dab of solder at each end and started one by one bridging the wires in the circuit to identify any bad wires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
CrashB said:
save the image to your computer then you can zoom in to see all the details. When I get home from work I have diagrams of all the block connectors aswell that I will post.

Is the fuel pump relay triggering? I had a similar issue with my TLS that I finally traced to faulty wiring.

Put a multimeter to the yellow/red at the fuel pump and turn the ignition on and let us know what the reading is there.

How I eventually fixed mine was by taking a 2m length of 18awg wire with a dab of solder at each end and started one by one bridging the wires in the circuit to identify any bad wires.
Thanks, I do appreciate the diagram. Looking forward to the block connector diagrams.

As stated the triggering of the relay is intermittent. Sometimes it does, othertimes not at all. There is no power to the Fuel pump as the relay does not switch. When it does, the fuel pump primes as normal. But again, even if it does prime, after the engine is turned it does not prime again, only if I am lucky and I flip the kill switch to off and on.

There were no instances where the relay switched and the pump did not run.
 

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So its been narrowed down to the ecm then.

The fuel pump works, the relay works, its the signal from the ecm to the relay that is questionable, the yellow/black wire between the smaller connector at the ecu and the relay.

My next step would be to bridge the yellow/black wire to isolate it as the cause of the trouble...

If that proves to be stable, then I'd go back and look at the power supply to the relay, which was what mine turned out to be. A break in the wire inside the sheath meant that it was intermittent.

If you have some wire and a spare fuse then try bridging directly from the battery to the fuel pump relay. If the pump reliably primes then then thats your problem.

Process of elimination. Remember your wiring loom is at its youngest 14 years old, and wasn't great quality to start with...

sterkte med die fiets bedrading :thumbup
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
CrashB said:
So its been narrowed down to the ecm then.

The fuel pump works, the relay works, its the signal from the ecm to the relay that is questionable, the yellow/black wire between the smaller connector at the ecu and the relay.
Would this be the wire between the ECM and the Starter Relay? I see not Yellow/Black wire to the Fuel Pump Relay?


CrashB said:
My next step would be to bridge the yellow/black wire to isolate it as the cause of the trouble...
So this means I bridge this wire directly to the "Signal" part of the pump relay?


CrashB said:
Remember your wiring loom is at its youngest 14 years old, and wasn't great quality to start with...
Also true, and this loom has been harassed by what we call "Brakpan" mechanics (Just google Brakpan and see what I mean :no)

CrashB said:
sterkte med die fiets bedrading :thumbup
Baie dankie meneer, ek hoop ek kom reg :D :cheers
 

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Would this be the wire between the ECM and the Starter Relay? I see not Yellow/Black wire to the Fuel Pump Relay?
My bad :banghead I meant yellow/blue. I should look closer at my own diagram before typing :banghead


So this means I bridge this wire directly to the "Signal" part of the pump relay?
Again I meant yellow/blue. Stupid me.

To reiterate: The yellow/blue :banghead is between the ecm and fuel pump relay. By bridging this (temporarily) then you can isolate whether there is an issue with that wire or not such as a break inside the sheathing.

I am reluctant to believe that the ecm is at fault, but there have been cases. I'm more inclined to believe that the power (orange/blue) into the relay is suffering an intermittent fault. To isolate that then run a fused bridge directly from the battery to the fuel pump relay (temporarily). I did this without the fuse on my own bike and it worked fine, but I expect its safer to use a fused bridge.

This bias is based entirely on my own experience with the TL wiring and fuel system, so I could be completely off base on this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
CrashB said:
My bad :banghead I meant yellow/blue. I should look closer at my own diagram before typing :banghead
You had me there for a moment..


CrashB said:
To reiterate: The yellow/blue :banghead is between the ecm and fuel pump relay. By bridging this (temporarily) then you can isolate whether there is an issue with that wire or not such as a break inside the sheathing.
Wilco. I shall provide feedback on my findings, thank you :)

CrashB said:
I am reluctant to believe that the ecm is at fault, but there have been cases. I'm more inclined to believe that the power (orange/blue) into the relay is suffering an intermittent fault. To isolate that then run a fused bridge directly from the battery to the fuel pump relay (temporarily). I did this without the fuse on my own bike and it worked fine, but I expect its safer to use a fused bridge.
Same here, I doubt that the ECM will strike and disable itself without proper cause.. I will also check and verify..

CrashB said:
This bias is based entirely on my own experience with the TL wiring and fuel system, so I could be completely off base on this.
None of what you said seems irrelevant, at least it all makes sense, and I would not think differently. Thank you very much for the info, at least now I have more places to look and a better possibility to sort this problem out :D
 

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Another possibility....

Given that your wire loom is old and played with by others, consider another possibility.

.....
It does for a few times, and then nothing. 2 hours later, nothing, then 10 min on, it primes again. Quite intermittent

As far as I understand, as soon as you try to start the bike, or at least press the starter button, the fuel pump should prime again. Obviously when the signal from the Crank gets to the ECM it will let the pump run until the motor is again not turning, priming again.
.....
The diagram on page 8-13 makes it easier to visualize than does the full wiring diagram. Notice that the "start" signal is sensed by the ECM at Pin 15 on the Small ECM connector (Yellow/Green wire). If this connection to the ECM is intermittent, the ECM may not know to enable the fuel pump relay (FPR) when the start button is pressed. And when you stop cranking the engine over, the ECM may not command the FPR to reprime because it saw no change in the state of the start button.

I'm not positive how the logic is set up in the ECM, but it is worth a look in view of what you have already discovered.

On a different note, the Ignition Switch and the Kill Switch both cut power to the ECM at Pin 12 of the Small ECM connector (Orange/Wht wire). Whenever power to
the ECM is reestablished, it should automatically go through the fuel pump prime sequence. I don't think there are any codes that will prevent that power-on sequence, but an experiment will be required to be sure. :)


If the signal does not get generated, or sent, would it perhaps mean I have a ECM that went bad overnight?
I'm with CrashB. Not likely. As noted previously, I suspect there is something else inhibiting the ECM's ability to control the fuel pump relay.



PS. Any chance you or someone could help me pinpoint the Yel/Blue on the ECM connector? Pin numbers are a bit difficult...
Again the diagram on page 8-13 says it comes from pin 6 on the Small ECM connector (yel/blu wire). Verify with your meter.



.....

I am reluctant to believe that the ecm is at fault, but there have been cases. I'm more inclined to believe that the power (orange/blue) into the relay is suffering an intermittent fault. ....
Agreed. Likely not a bad ECM....yet.

If the Orange/Blu wire is the intermittent culprit, it could be verified by monitoring its voltage at the FPR, and then key on. If the Org/Blu wire stays at 12 volts while the prime cycle is executed, yet the fuel pump does not activate, the Org/Blu wire is not the problem.



....

Same here, I doubt that the ECM will strike and disable itself without proper cause.. I will also check and verify..

....
You're almost there! :laugh
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Damn, Six5 puts is so much more eloquently than I can :laugh

My method is definitely 'layman' compared to his :thumbup
I value all logical opinions, advice and facts equally, and would not degrade you answer ;)

The diagram on page 8-13 makes it easier to visualize than does the full wiring diagram. Notice that the "start" signal is sensed by the ECM at Pin 15 on the Small ECM connector (Yellow/Green wire). If this connection to the ECM is intermittent, the ECM may not know to enable the fuel pump relay (FPR) when the start button is pressed. And when you stop cranking the engine over, the ECM may not command the FPR to reprime because it saw no change in the state of the start button.

I'm not positive how the logic is set up in the ECM, but it is worth a look in view of what you have already discovered.

On a different note, the Ignition Switch and the Kill Switch both cut power to the ECM at Pin 12 of the Small ECM connector (Orange/Wht wire). Whenever power to
the ECM is reestablished, it should automatically go through the fuel pump prime sequence. I don't think there are any codes that will prevent that power-on sequence, but an experiment will be required to be sure. :)

I'm with CrashB. Not likely. As noted previously, I suspect there is something else inhibiting the ECM's ability to control the fuel pump relay.

Again the diagram on page 8-13 says it comes from pin 6 on the Small ECM connector (yel/blu wire). Verify with your meter.


Agreed. Likely not a bad ECM....yet.
I agree, this would make it easier for me to determine. I am on the edge of giving up and purchasing another loom and ECU, but this gives me a bit of hope.

The only problem I have is that I do not have a pinout of the ECM, and I know not where to start counting etc etc. Do you perhaps have a picture of the pins with numbers? This will greatly ease my endeavor.

If the Orange/Blu wire is the intermittent culprit, it could be verified by monitoring its voltage at the FPR, and then key on. If the Org/Blu wire stays at 12 volts while the prime cycle is executed, yet the fuel pump does not activate, the Org/Blu wire is not the problem.
I can confirm that the 12v Orange/Blue is not intermittent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well, it seems like I've ran out of options.

I confirmed that the signal wire from the starter as well as the kill switch reaches the ECM, I made sure all the wires at the ECM are properly seated. I also followed the starter circuit as per the manual and checked all ends.

After successful engaging of the pump relay about 4 or 5 times, it again stopped and I wiggled/pushed/pulled/strained every piece of wire, connector, sensor plug, lug, isolated connections, everything, Keeping the kill switch on in case I find a short or bad connection, but nothing :(

I can confirm that I have no errors on the display (i had to connect the Air Temp sensor to get rid of C21).

Personally I think the problem may be much deeper buried, as bridging the relay did not get the bike to start, and no errors was returned after a few cycles, which drained my battery to a near death..

I'm replacing the harness and the (Chinese restricted derestricted) ECM with those from a running bike, and hope it will sort out my problem. If not, well, then I'm gonna use the bike as a pretty fuel for my barbecue :/

Thanks for all the help and assistance, I would rather have had it be solutions, but obviously this scooter hates me :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Does the fuel pump prime if you bridge it directly from the battery?
Yes, and it primes/pumps when bridging the 12v from kill switch and fuel pump connector. There were no instance where the relay switched without the pump being powered.

I also confirmed that the voltages between the relay/pump/ignition are correct and not fluctuating other than the intended changes.

All signals sent to the ECU was checked, according to every schematic available to me.

The signal does not always reach the relay, and wiring and continuity was excluded from the equation, as I rarely got a C41 error (fuel pump relay)..

Whenever the relay "clicked" and I disconnected the wiring from it, I would get a C41.

Thus, my believe is that the ECU got damaged somehow. I'm not at all able to recreate the scenario where the relay receives no signal.

I will be swopping out the whole harness and ECU from a working bike in order to verify whether either was bad or not.

Thanks though
 

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...My method is definitely 'layman' compared to his :thumbup
Don't sell yourself short CrashB. Your wiring diagrams are nothing short of gorgeous! :drool

I can finally zoom in and see the connections and labels clearly. So cool. :cool




....

I will be swopping out the whole harness and ECU from a working bike in order to verify whether either was bad or not.

...
If you swap out the ECM first, let us know how it goes please. :)



.....
I'm replacing the harness and the (Chinese restricted derestricted) ECM with those from a running bike, and hope it will sort out my problem.
....
Henri, why do you say, "Chinese restricted?" :dowhat Did I miss something in the discussion? :confused
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If you swap out the ECM first, let us know how it goes please. :)
I will be sure to do so :)


Henri, why do you say, "Chinese restricted?" :dowhat Did I miss something in the discussion? :confused
Haha, sorry. The bike is running on a Japanese ECU according to the part number, did not know it was restricted until I found the unknown little black box which turned out to be the derestricter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, it aint the ECM or the harness :confused

Getting the exact same results. I'm going to disassemble the whole front end tomorrow including the cluster to check for any infidel wires..

Check back soon!
 
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