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Black smoke like a diesel.

2K views 23 replies 4 participants last post by  Rickysnicker 
#1 ·
98 TL1000R about 35,000. Don't know the history of the bike. Since I bought her there have been some obvious issues I am still trying to work through. We will start from startup. First the loud snap style back fire right at start up. Only 1 and she is off. I can't seem to find the right spot for the idle. It's either just a little to high (about 2000rpm)or she stalls out. I am also getting backfiring from the exhaust with a nice little pyro technic show for the other drivers. And every now and then, when I'm able to hold her steady at a speed there is a single backfire through the tb. Now that one feels like you running out of gas. Just one ",,,fump,,," split second lose of power and ready to go. I've had it happen at a light and on the highway. Also she is extremely difficult to keep at any one speed. I'm not sure how to explain what is going on but I will try. I'll be going then all of sudden it seems like I just let go of the throttle. Engine breaking but with a minor minor twist of the throttle she seems okay but because of this I can't keep a steady speed. Sometime you could almost mistake it for low fuel except with low fuel it feels different. There also the matter of the juttering. Again while trying to hold a steady speed she jutters pretty good back forth. Have to let off throttle and then back on and she seems okay. It could be from being in to low of a gear but 55mph in 4th seems okay with me. Either that or its 55mph in 3rd at 5000 or 6000 RPM.
RECAP
1. SNAP BACKFIRE AT STARTUP
2. FLUCTUATING IDLE
3. BACKFIRE FROM EXHAUST WITH FLAME
4. BACKFIRE THROUGH TB.
5. KEEPING AT SPEED
6. JUTTERS
Thank you all for your input. Just so everyone knows I am leaning towards a bad fuel pump and a charging system on it way to failing. The head light dims and brightens. Throttle and speed have no effect.
 
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#2 ·
One last thing. Was noticed just yesterday. My buddy was riding behind me and said that my bike smokes black smoke and lets out a pretty good cloud at take off. Referenced a diesel engine. But it does stop after awhile. Last thing. Took her on the highway last night. Got her up to around 120mph and she feels stable, nothing cutting and out but there is a vibration which I believe is just the timing chain. It's a Suzuki.
 
#3 ·
The more learned on here will be of more help than me. However, black smoke indicates the bike is running rich, generally. Does it have some type of tuning device on it, like a Dynojet box or similar? Sounds like you might want to take a look at all your vacuum lines to see if there might be some cracks in them. It's a free easy thing to start with too.
 
#4 ·
That was my plan for today. Nothing hooked up or anything like that. She has always seemed to run rich. Right now I am running E3 spark plugs and have been told by pretty much everyone that they are the best spark plugs. After looking through the service manual I see that they actually suggest 3 different Sparks plugs. Run it to temp, pull the plugs and if it black use hotter plugs, if it's clean use standard plug and if its glazed looking use a colder one. Those E3 are coming out pretty black so I'm considering running a hotter plugs. Not sure exactly what they mean but a hotter plug but maybe, and someone please let me know if im wrong, it will be easier for the plug to ignite the gas. Maybe the plug isn't able to ignite the gas at the right time because it's a colder plug. That's why I'm getting backfiring and speed surging.
 
#6 ·
+1 👍
You will probably also find carbon buildup on the backside of the intake valves. You will be able to see it through the throttle body.

If it is blowing black smoke, and the plugs are black, it is running rich, just as Ricky noted. Most likely, someone in the past made some fueling adjustments with a Yosh Box, or something similar, and they didn't get the idle mix quite right. Actually, the fuel table for most of the RPM range may be messed up, based on your description of the way it runs. It would be worth your time to find someone with a Yosh box and zero out the ECM fuel maps. That way you have a good Baseline to start from.

As for the E3 spark plugs, I disagree. The OEM NGK recommended plugs have a proven history - going on two decades now. The TL engine works well with them, and they have good reliability when the other engine parameters are in spec. Also, I wouldn't recommend changing the spark plug heat ratings until you get the fuel maps figured out.
 
#8 ·
Carbon buildup already noticed. This picture will say it all. I have the service manual and the parts manual for the TL1000R. The parts manual is awesome because it is an exploded view of every single part and where it connects. I wish every bike had such detailed manuals. Using those I went through the entire vacuum system and found no brakes in the lines what so ever and everything is hooked up correctly. I do have a new fuel pump assembly on the way. It's a replacement kit but I was very careful in making sure that it was an OEM replace for my bike. I do need to get a new battery and I'm going tomorrow to try to find those hotter plugs in hopes that it will help some of the issues I'm having. I have also noticed that I hear the timing chain so I will also be DIYing a manual timing chain tensioner. I did one on my CBR600F3 that seemed to work really well. Never had an issue after that. I'm trying to avoid having to do the timing because the she has 35,000 miles on her which means timing her with that chain would be impossible and, not that I can't or eventually do it, I would rather replace everything in the engine new and rule it all out as the issue then jump into the timing. Same with the valves. The engine itself is in really good shape and at one, before it sat for over a year, it was a very well taken care of bike so I believe she has alot more life left in her. Im not an extremely aggressive rider. I do like to show off from time to time but I'd rather not have to pick her up out of impound. I appreciate the help so far and am open to any suggestions and will chuggin along working these issues out. Oh yeah I do ride her everyday about 2 to 4 miles from home to my sister's, maybe run a few close errands then home. Since she sat I feel that I should at least keep the fluids running through her.
 
#16 ·
The first one I bought I only paid $240 but it had taken apart by a tweeker. Took me 2 days to put her back together and she fired right up. Then was stolen the day before I could put it in my name. Great followed by a sad day. I had to have this one and shez all mine this time.
 
#17 ·
In the photo of the valves (and yes those do look like they've just come out of a coal mine) is that something sitting behind the right valve stem? I can't tell if it is just some artifact of the image or the head of an M8 bolt wedged into the valve seat.
 
#18 ·
It was the tip of one of the injectors. I had to go after it with hemos that's how I noticed the valves were like that. I got it out though. From what I gather these bikes can't or don't run rich unless someone has set the computer to run that way. Am I correct on this or do all the switches and relays sending. Info to and from ECU cause the ECU to perminently change values. Just wondering if someone had maybe tampered with it or the computer can change itself over time.
 
#19 ·
If your injectors are falling to pieces that may be a hint as to why it isn't running right.

TLs are finicky beasts and it doesn't take much to throw the fueling off. Changing the exhaust cans, a bad exhaust seal, aftermarket air filters, pretty much any change away from standard can affect things. Not sure what those Yoshi cans are doing but if we assume the bike was set up for them when they went on originally it is possible for things to have drifted away from optimum. It may be that the cans went on and no other work was done in which case the setup could be way out.
 
#20 ·
I bought it used with no back ground on it. I have been trying to do everything I can think of because I would like to try not to mess with the valves or the timing. Last night I tried the PAIR removal and now the bike is unridable. Before I was getting a backfire from the exhaust. They would come at random. No particular set of circumstances would cause it. When it would back fire it would shoot out about a nice 4 inch flame. And every now and then I would get a hickup from the airbox. Just one but it did stall the bike out one day at a red light. I was told the PAIR system delete would help that. It was the complete opposite. Now it is a constant backfire and hickup. Completely unridable. I don't understand what's going on with it.
 
#21 ·
I bought the bike a month ago for $800. Was told she ran a year ago then was parked. Guy said all I needed to do was put in a new battery and fluids and she was ready. Well, that was pretty much the case. After some cleaning of course. When I got her home filled her with new fluids, I put in the best battery I had and got her to turn on. Awesome. Went to put gas in her and it leaked all over the place. Bought a new fuel pump gasket and was sent the one for the TLS so I sealed the crap out of it with black gasket maker. Not a drop since. Got the gas to stay in the tank and tried too fire her up but nothing. Changed the spark plugs to the E3s and saw a spark that night. The next day tried to turn her over. No FI codes or anything but still nothin. Wouldn't even try. So just in case I bypassed the kickstand switch, clutch switch and charger the battery and still nothing. So I cleaned the fuel injectors twice and she started. The only thing is she sounds like a Harley and she would backfire and throw flames randomly and hickup through the carb and did feel like the acceleration should be faster. I could never get that perfect idle. It was either 2200 RPM of 1000 RPM. Nowh I've done PAIR and it's way worse. Can someone send me the diagram that showed where all the I b tf
 
#22 ·
Ok. Best thing you can do it get it base-lined back to as close to standard as possible. Starting from a known point at least gives you some chance of finding a direction in which to move.

Guessing is always a bad thing in these cases but I'm going to have a go anyway. I reckon that the Yoshi cans were fitted. It ran like crap afterwards and to try to fix it the fueling was over-compensated. If you were to take this bike to someone who knows their stuff and has the kit they will tell you it is just dumping gas into the cylinders. If we ignore other possibilities like knackered valve stem seals contributing to the carbon build-up (and maybe the exploding injectors) it needs to be drinking much less gas than it is currently being fed.

I'm basing this on personal experience. When I got my tiller it had some very nice (as in thunderous) carbon cans on it. It ran fine but did about 3mpg. When some nasty little $%&$$&^$^ ran me down at a stop light and smashed the cans I put the originals back on and the bike almost wouldn't run. A bit of time on a dyno with a yosh box in the hands of a man who can and its all sorted. Now it does nearly 15mpg.

I don't think there is any easy quick fix for your bike. I'd suggest tearing it down, cleaning up the internals, stick it back together paying close attention to the state of the injectors, air box, the vac lines, filters and so on. May be worth checking the state of the packing in those cans too if there is any.

It may be a lot of work for an $800 bike but you will be rewarded at the end of it.
 
#23 ·
Well it looks like I have a whole new set of issues. Sorry it's been so long since I responded. It seems if I want to ride my TLR I have to spend at least 2 hours before I ride just to get it to start. But this one is completely baffling me. So I actually had her running pretty well. I adjusted the TPS and I put in the proper plugs. I used some NKG CR8KE or something like that. I know they were the hot plugs because in the manually it said to use the 9s and then pull them and see what they look like and mine have all come out extremely black. Even those did when I pulled them but she seemed to run okay. I still had the backfire through the tail pipe but nothing abnormal and an occasional gasp through the carbs but it was better then before and I finally got a steady idle plus she was starting on her own finally. Then yesterday I was at my buddies and I tried to adjust the carbs or at least see if they were out of sync. They seemed just fine. I did adjust the screw a little to even then out a bit. When I put her back together it seems that I am getting no fuel to the plugs or no spark from the plugs. I pulled those plugs and they were black black so I cleaned them and my buddy and I went through the entire vacuum system, fuel system and tank and cleaned it all up. We were finally able to get her to run by spraying carb cleaner in her but the exhaust got so hot it started to melt my fairing. We were finally able to get her started on her own. She didn't seem to jutter anymore which was one of the biggest and most annoying issues. It was very light juttering, one gasp through carb, a few pops out of exhaust. Not much black smoke, but was having issues with her wanting to die at idle. It was either 2500 rpms or higher and any lower and she would die if I didn't keep the throttle up. I got her home and this morning I went to start her and she isn't even trying to start. I smell gas which is normal when my fuel pump kicked on. Just a faint smell but just cranks not even a little fire. I pulled the plugs and they seemed just fine even after the 20 minute highway ride home which would have left the other plugs black. The plugs didn't look wet at all either so I figure it's a fuel issue so I put the plug back in and spray some carb cleaner through her and nothing. Not even a little fire. So now it's a possible job spark, no fuel issue. I am seriously trying to avoid having to take the engine out. Not that I can't I just really don't want to have to do that. When she runs she runs great other than a few issues. I'm just exhausted with it all. I love the bike but I'm not sure the small amount of riding is worth the hours and hours I spend trying to go on that ride. I'm still not giving up just yet though. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all.
 
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