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Discussion Starter #1
I sent Doug at ARC a request for info about the TL frame they are planning to build....... here is his response........

Hi,
Well thanks for asking, no price yet. Should have a test bed running by Christmas, 1st run is always time consuming. Lots of bits you can only figure for when you get a roller together. I'm looking to have a race version at approx 330-340lbs wet. Depending on how much weight can be removed from the engine, just might be able to do better. No saying not knowing.
The TLR engine is a pretty sweet motor. The layout is excellent, really lends itself to a variety of frame geometry's and centers of balance. I've not done much with one. Pretty excited about the potential. Going to invest a lot of time in testing to develop a well tuned exhaust. Looking at stock dyno curves leads me to believe there is some decent latent power waiting in this engine. Radiator under the tail. Cantilever rear suspension. Have Max down at TraxxionDynamics doing a set of 06 1000GSXR forks with that nifty cartridge valved and sprung for the weight and geometry that will be used, same with a 3 way Penske, plus a Ti spring and his hydralic spring perch. I like the lineal rate those Ti springs have. Saves 3.5lbs too. Ducati 996 triple clamps, nice offset, good ridgid clamping. Using the best from a number of bikes. Why re-invent the wheel?
No pun intended.
It is a fun project. I think it is going to be a pretty nifty bike all said and done.
Give it a good ringing out at VIR in the spring.
If I can get the weight down to at least 330lbs, and 125-130 reliable HP, it will be competitive. The motor has some nice grunt. Get it to hook up well out of the hole, it will be a bike that has the drive advantage, the light weight will help improve acceleration and braking times.
Go from there.
Hows that sound to you Tony?
You interested in one for yourself?

Regards,
Doug


Could be really cool if they can pull it off and depending on the cost in the end...... I guess I'll keep watching!!!!
 

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I just bought another stock TLR frame, and I am amazed at how heavy it is.

Getting a street TL down to 330 lbs and 130 HP isn't easy but he sound like he's making a race bike, and not shy about going to high-bucks materials like ti springs (nice!), maybe high-bucks wheels, titanium rear disc, hard-surfaced aluminum clutch friction plates, etc. He says he's going to see how much weight he can take out of the engine, it might be really interesting to see what he does besides lighten the crank...remove the starter?

I remember seeing some pieces from a friend's old bevel-gear-cam-drive NCR Ducati, and how they even drilled the heck out of the shift drum to save weight.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I wrote him back and said we'd all be interested in seeing what he could do.... I told him many would have a hard time justifying thousands of more dollars on a bike whose origional design is coming up near 10 years now, unless the performance and the price was amazing...... we'll see.
 

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i honestly dont think he can get a Tlr to be 340LBS wet.. but i guess im gonna have to sit and wait.. cuz the TLR is about 490 wet.. thats a BIG chunck of metal taken off.. are u sure its not gonna be solar powerd?:lol

Ash
 

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Discussion Starter #5
?

:eatcorn :eatcorn :eatcorn
 
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Arc Fab

i honestly dont think he can get a Tlr to be 340LBS wet.. but i guess im gonna have to sit and wait.. cuz the TLR is about 490 wet.. thats a BIG chunck of metal taken off.. are u sure its not gonna be solar powerd?:lol

Ash
Check out Arc Fab website, http://arcfabrication.com/index.html
they will prob. ditch everything on the TLR and build their rat style
bike from whats left. Sounds like their just using the motor anyways

I've been talking to these guys about a full custom exhaust for my streetfighter, should have something going for it in a few weeks!!
 

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I
I remember seeing some pieces from a friend's old bevel-gear-cam-drive NCR Ducati, and how they even drilled the heck out of the shift drum to save weight.
There was one out at the Cali Speedway this Saturday. Sweet bike. Guy let my Duc enthusiast boss ride it for a few sessions. He was impressed at how quickly it steered & how light it was.
 

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Yes, one year at Grattan 3 showed up!

Dr. Desmo, John, has the one from "fast" freddie spencer in his livingroom on a rotating base, and this time of year probably has Christmas tree lights on it again...
 

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i honestly dont think he can get a Tlr to be 340LBS wet.. but i guess im gonna have to sit and wait.. cuz the TLR is about 490 wet.. thats a BIG chunck of metal taken off.. are u sure its not gonna be solar powerd?:lol

Ash
Yes it can be done. I have done it. A street bike will be a bit more.
 

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Frames

I just had a nice chat with Richard Shepherd. He just bought some tube equipment that cuts his time to make a frame from 8 to 9 weeks to 3 to 4 weeks. Order now and ride next summer.
 

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I love my TLR, and I think it is mostly the motor I like. If I could turn the whole thing into a frame project for a street bike, man that would be sweet....

How does the titling issue get resolved if one purchases a TS, etc frame?
 

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I love my TLR, and I think it is mostly the motor I like. If I could turn the whole thing into a frame project for a street bike, man that would be sweet....

How does the titling issue get resolved if one purchases a TS, etc frame?
In my case I regestired it as a new custom bike. I had to show reciets for all the major components. Then a deputy came and inspected the whole bike. It was really funny becacuse he had never done it before and had to ask me what to do. Then the state gave me a frame number and the deputy came back to stamp it in. Now in Wyoming the title runs with the frame. I sold the frame from my TLS so that title went with the frame. Had I keep the frame and title I would have just stamped the old frame number inito the TS frame and called it good. Now if a really sharp cop looked at it close it might be a problem. One of the things I checked before I had it inspected was what were the Wyoming regs for lights,horn, ect. I went to the hiway patrol here and they called the capital and double checked. All the regs said was you had to have a headlight, taillight, and horn. Nothing about size or shape just that you had to have them.
 

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Most states don't care much about equipment details, but there's also national federal uniform motor vehicle code laws that say the light and lenses have to be DOT approved, yadda yadda... The mirrors have to make an object visible at some set distance. Taillight has to be visible from some distance. Turn indicators are not required.

...then you see the Harleys with a 1" dental mirror clamped to the handlebars...optically good so yes you can see an object 100 feet away...unless the Harley is running in which case you can't even see the mirror at all, just a blur at the end of the handle/stalk.

California has all these laws, but they only inspect numbers and lights. But if you want to take a drivers' license test on it, THEN they want a horn.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
another email from Doug at ARC... pretty pursuading srgumaent about this project........

Welcome. Thanks for asking Tony.
I certainly can't speak for your pocket book. Though understand fully where your coming from. Belive me when I say this.
Not from a business perspective, but looking at this project solely from a performance perspective. And this is my premis on this project.
The TLR engine, though like you said is almost 10 years "vintage", is not an engine out of date performance wise.
Lets consider the numbers if you will.
Weight of motor. On par with todays best Twins. Give or take 5 lbs.
A plus.
Ergonomics of motor. Excellent cyl bank location. Rotated up and rearwards, compact stacked primary and transmission grouping, low deck height, 90 degree V for perfect primary balance and torque, Very good Pent Roof 4 valve design combustion chambers, excellent ports, stout clutch, well thought out gear ratio's, fuel injection, liquid cooled.
All diffinate positives.

Obviously a well thought out motor. The TL/SV's longevity of popularity has proven this. It has a solid and loyal following. I think it is safe to say, if it was a lesser motor, most wouldn't still have one. How many folks have owned one since new. How long, 5, 7 years? That says a lot.

Now for the hard numbers. This is easy.
The TLR/SV family of engines make what, 116rwhp in basicly stock trim?
10 years out of date you say?
A stock TLR/SV weighs approx 480lbs ready to ride.
( An "06" Ducati 999S makes 114-116 rwhp in basicly stock trim on our Dyno.
450+lbs wet ready to swing a leg over.)

If I take a TLR1000 engine, wrap a frame and swingarm around it, add current high performance suspension, practicle light weight componants, improved handling, increase usable power by 10rwhp, reduce the wet weight by 150lbs. Would this be in line with current ideals of performance?
My goal is power to weight ratios on par with the best VTwins out there.
Handling on par with the best out there also.
And do this economicly.

Weight, or more correctly less of it, is the last bastion of performance that holds dramatic potential for improvements in current motorcycle design.
Weight, or mass is fundimental in physics. In a motorcycle you have to accelerate it, and decellerate it. We use the kenetic energy the engine produces to move this mass. Reduce the mass, you free energy to accelerate more rapidly in a shorter time. Stop in less distance. Turn easier, handling is improved.

If you do the math of power to weight ratio, using a TLR engine, this gets you as good as there is in practicle terms.
Add the fundimental quality's inherent in a Hi Perf VTwin such as power delivery, torque/hp characteristics, the centralised mass of a Vtwin and what this adds to the handling.
In my phylosophy of thinking about performance, my practicle experience in building and racing VTwins, I ask myself: What I would like to do if I could build the perfect VTwin racer without millions of R&D dollars? Be smart, be practicle, use common sence and don't re-invent the wheel.
The TLR/SV 1000 engine is close to the perfect choice.
It is a no brainer.

I'll make an offer to you Tony. Meet me at VIR next spring, take the TLR powered RatBike for a few laps. If how it performs doesn't blow your mind, I'll buy you the best steak dinner in town.
Hows that grab you?

Warm regards,
Doug


hmmmm, I may not be able to make it to VIR... but some of you East Coasters might wanna look into it!!!!!! Hey Gerhard, maybe a good time to go visit your brother!!!!!
 

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I do like that facility & wouldn't mind riding it on the North course! Hell, even the tighter & twisty South course isn't that bad from what I've seen. Depends on what is going on that time of year though. You know my bike intensive schedule & the Spring is when it starts rocking & rolling.

I think the TL engine definitely has potential it is just the chassis is very dated & it shows when you start pushing it really hard. Good forks & a rear shock along with good baseline set up & track side support can only do so much. A new chassis like what Terry Shepard came up seems like a good solution.

:)
 
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