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Discussion Starter #1
TLR Cam question.

People are getting good results economically upgrading TLS engines by using the TLR intake cam and using the the TLS intake cam (retimed) as an exhaust cam. Better results if they put in TLR pistons or raise compression somehow.

I really want aftermarket cams for my TLR but the price is truly painful (got any you'd part with??). So I had a weird idea for upgrading TLR engines economically, taking the TLS cam swap upgrade one step further.

I have the Wiseco high-compression pistons, which are not all that expensive. How about if I used a (retimed) TLR intake cam as an exhaust cam, and bought only aftermarket weld-up/regrind intake cams? If it works decently, it should cut the cost almost in half compared to a full set of aftermarket cams, since I'd buy only half the cams. Well, not quite, 'cause I'd need a second set of TLR intake cams for the core exchange but I already have those. Did anybody run the numbers? Anybody willing to check it out? Where's that post with all the cam lifts & durations?

Alternatively, if the (retimed) TLR intake cam doesn't turn out to be suitable as an exhaust cam, and the TLS intake cam is already known to work decently as an exhaust cam and out-performs the TLR exhaust cam, would it make sense to have a matching somewhat conservative aftermarket intake cam made?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
TL1000S (all model year)
IN Open = 31° BTDC
IN Close = 67° ABDC
- - - - - 98+180=278 duraton
IN Valve Lift = 9.8 mm
EX Open = 67° BBDC
EX Close = 31° ATDC
- - - - - 98+180=278 duration
EX Valve Lift = 9.0 mm

TL1000R (all model year)
IN Open = 32° BTDC
IN Close = 68° ABDC
- - - - - 100+180=280 duration
IN Valve Lift = 10.8 mm

EX Open = 67° BBDC
EX Close = 31° ATDC
- - - - - 98+180=278 duration
EX Valve Lift = 9.0 mm

WEB-CAM
IN duration 288 - - duration at .050 lift 260
EX duration 286 - - duration at .050 lift 254
IN Valve Lift = .425 = 10.79
EX Valfve Lift = .400 = 10.16
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Looks like:

TLS intake has more lift than aftermarket exhaust.

Aftermarket intake lift is same as TLR.



The exhaust valves being comparatively small, I'm surprised people are getting so much benefit from opening them farther swapping in the TLS intake cam as an exhaust cam. And nobody mentioned coil bind or needing to shorten the valve stems. I wonder if the lift for the aftermarket cams has something to do with the dynamic timing with the longer duration and overlap...if they had more lift would the intake and exhaust valves bang into each other? We have a pretty narrow included angle, which might help minimize that problem. This makes me wonder whether Web Cam could make me some torque cams with shorter duration and more lift than their racy cams. Would I need to deepen the valve clearance pockets in the Wieco high-compression pistons? Can't raise the redline anyway, can I raise and widen the plateau?

It's still difficult for me to imagine all this without real curves etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
darn that's hard to read even clicked for big. How did he get it in his post so nicely?
 

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Just remember! With all these mods!!! Get a custommade map to a pc3 usb! The mapper must be a proff
After all the things I´ve done to my bike and after all the dynoruns I´ve get done, I have leaned that U have to get a custom map before U really feel the difference!

Read my new thread cyclecamper
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79285



TLR IN cam acnnot be used as TLR EX cam so U have the same cams just with diff timing. That gives the same lift on IN and EX! U need a couple of TLS IN cams, get Bernhard to repres the 1 of them! The other just need new timing marks.
 

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unfortunately I think one of the most imprtant things to do before a cam upgrade is to degree in the cams either stock or whatever. This means about $500. for a set of adjustable cam gears there is probably 50% of any possible HP gain from cams coming from getting them installed correctly. Might want to read through the various articles from this link
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/
this is a Ducati shop in Australia but the principles are exactly the same for the TLR and I would expect similar results. Expecting to just bolt in a cam or cams from an aftermarket source and expecting good results is wishfull thinking.
 

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unfortunately I think one of the most imprtant things to do before a cam upgrade is to degree in the cams either stock or whatever. This means about $500. for a set of adjustable cam gears there is probably 50% of any possible HP gain from cams coming from getting them installed correctly. Might want to read through the various articles from this link
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/
this is a Ducati shop in Australia but the principles are exactly the same for the TLR and I would expect similar results. Expecting to just bolt in a cam or cams from an aftermarket source and expecting good results is wishfull thinking.
+1

need to be able to degree them for sure. save some of the money you were going to spend porting a perfectly good set of 97 heads and spend it on a real set of cams. dont worry about cores. the spears / web cams guys have mounts of TL cores.

heres a post where i mention changing to different valve springs and retainers to accommodate aftermarket cam lift

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63417&page=2&highlight=retainers
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The porting is free 'cause I do it myself. I'd gladly spend that on aftermarket cams, but for cams and adjustable gears to degree them and a degree wheel you're talking $1000. The adjustable gears cost nearly as much as the aftermarket cams.

Just sticking in aftermarket cams using the marks is no better nor worse practice than doing the same with stock cams. You'd hope the aftermarket cams would be timed more accurately, but not necessarily so.

A very reasonable compromise might be to degree your aftermarket cams and see how far out they are before deciding whether to spend the big bucks for adjustable gears. The adjustable sprockets for most bikes are a lot more reasonably priced than the adjustable gears ours require. For my old Honda you could just get a template so you knew where to drill extra holes and mark them, making it nearly free. For ours it's $450 & tax & shipping.
 

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grinding away with a dremel is free but now requires a valve job and seals you wouldnt have had to buy before.:devious guess it depends what cams you are going with and whether or not you are going to change the retainers and springs....
 

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I followed that link but didn't find much discussion of retainers and springs etc.

The Web Cam site gives the impression that stock srpings and retainers are OK. What did you & Art do? What is the mechanical limit on lift? Is it piston-vavle interference, vavle-valve interference? Can I trade, get a little more lift but a little less duration than the normal web cam timing? The guys who are running retimed TLS intake cams as exhaust cams are getting more exhaust lift than the web cam exhaust cams.
 

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i think it was all about valve float rather than binding. probably not really necessary, especially considering how much time you will be spending near redline. im sure arts revved out way more than either of us being a race only bike n all. i believe its busa springs and custom retainers. standard valve job, no porting whatsoever, just cams and compression. she dynoed 130 with 12 miles on the bike and very restrictive cans...
 
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