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we don't need this healight mod as its in the uk so we turn the lights off and it always starts ....
Not quite right....:no

See post #35 in this thread.


...

its had a new battery the same its reading 13.5 at 4000 revs which seems to be normal(lights off) for these but as soon as you put the lights on drops to 12.1v ! ......!!
spanwah, remind me please, does your TL have the charging mod installed?

If not, it is behaving quite typically.



.....

BAD WIRING somewhere in the loom. Also, remember the headlight mod cut while starting is simply a helpful byproduct and the relay STILL HELPS. You wouldn't need to tie the starting cut in, since as you said you can just flip the switch, but the AMPERAGE still flows through your trash wiring. You want the VOLTAGE of the switch to trigger the relay, but the AMPERAGE to flow through higher quality wiring...
:stupid
 

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The way I read that is that he gets charging voltage when plugged in but no voltage when measuring with a multimeter across the terminals at the output side of the reg/rec which to me suggests it been measured wrong
how can it be measured wrong? checked at battery all connected 13.9 running no lights on! work my way back to output of rectifier/regulator 13.9v!!!!then disconnect plug from output of RR( 2black cables 2 red cables 4 pin plug) so the input from stator is still connected 3 yellow wires! ! you should I presume get slightly more voltage at the output (that's where the charging mod is done from direct to the battery so if its direct from the 4 pin plug it should read 14v roughly? or am I wrong? my thoughts are there is an intermittent fault with the rr? the bike starts fine but run it with the lights on after 20-30 mile flickering then dies?
what I cant get my head around is no voltage when disconnected at output of RR?? not measured wrong 20v dc on tester!
 

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If you are getting basically no volts with the output side unplugged (but the input side plugged in and the engine running), then your R/R is toast. You should only get no volts output when it is NOT running. You are correct in that it should be reading near 14v. When it is plugged in, the voltage you are reading is probably the voltage from the battery flowing BACK to the R/R, not any charging voltage coming out. Are you reading 13.9v with the battery on zero draw (key off, sitting there)? I am surprised though that you can make such a long journey w/o the R/R regenerating ANY power. I would assume the coil would be starved much sooner with no charging...

Still your voltages falling so quickly on lights seems to indicate you have a very similar problem to Methtical. BAD WIRING somewhere in the loom. Also, remember the headlight mod cut while starting is simply a helpful byproduct and the relay STILL HELPS. You wouldn't need to tie the starting cut in, since as you said you can just flip the switch, but the AMPERAGE still flows through your trash wiring. You want the VOLTAGE of the switch to trigger the relay, but the AMPERAGE to flow through higher quality wiring...
the bike was at 3000rpm and there was no voltage on output on RR when it was disconnected 4 pin plug? but then I connected it up it measured 13.9v ? fecking very strange!!!! unless its going back from the batt like you said mate but if its intermittent it could happen with the journey?
 

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If my research on the web amounts to anything :coocoo, I'll try to explain why the RR is causing so much confusion in the following quotes. This is a learning exercise for me also, so please bear with me.


right someone may help here! checked the stator output today around 58 at 3000rpm on each phase all equal!!! then connected back up to the rectifier and disconnected the output end of the regulator/rectifier and received 0 - 1 volts ...whats made me confused is if you connect it back up to the connection which geos to the battery end you get 13.9v??????????? surely disconnected from the output end of regulator/rectifier to red cables/2 black cables it should read 14 v or there abouts? instead of nothing???
...did a diode test and it seems to be fine? puzzle continues!!

...?
Agreed, such results are unexpected....and confusing.

If you are getting basically no volts with the output side unplugged (but the input side plugged in and the engine running), then your R/R is toast. You should only get no volts output when it is NOT running. You are correct in that it should be reading near 14v. When it is plugged in, the voltage you are reading is probably the voltage from the battery flowing BACK to the R/R, not any charging voltage coming out. .....

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Not necessarily. See below.

how can it be measured wrong? checked at battery all connected 13.9 running no lights on! work my way back to output of rectifier/regulator 13.9v!!!!then disconnect plug from output of RR( 2black cables 2 red cables 4 pin plug) so the input from stator is still connected 3 yellow wires! ! ...
what I cant get my head around is no voltage when disconnected at output of RR?? not measured wrong 20v dc on tester!
the bike was at 3000rpm and there was no voltage on output on RR when it was disconnected 4 pin plug? but then I connected it up it measured 13.9v ? ....?
In a nut shell, the issue you are encountering with your RR "test," is that the typical motorcycle shunt-type regulator needs to be connected to the battery to do its job.

The voltage rectifier/regulator schematic at this web page
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/RegRec/GPZvRegMagnetField.html
is a simplified (but functional) version of the regulator on our TLs. You will notice that the transistor, Q1, is connected to the battery in the schematic. That transistor (and its associated circuit) needs to have a power source because it controls the "logic" in the regulator. It tells the SCRs when to conduct. When the battery is disconnected, the regulator cannot function with only the AC voltage coming in from the stator windings. Therefore, it shuts off. That's why you measured zero volts at the RR's output when the battery was disconnected.

Given that finding, and the fact that spanwah's other tests seem to indicate a functional stator, and RR, and battery, I'm still leaning toward the likelyhood of a wiring problem as the cause of the charging issue.

There you have it. Highly simplified, but I think (hope) it is accurate. :dowhat
 

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If my research on the web amounts to anything :coocoo, I'll try to explain why the RR is causing so much confusion in the following quotes. This is a learning exercise for me also, so please bear with me.




Agreed, such results are unexpected....and confusing.



Not necessarily. See below.





In a nut shell, the issue you are encountering with your RR "test," is that the typical motorcycle shunt-type regulator needs to be connected to the battery to do its job.

The voltage rectifier/regulator schematic at this web page
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/RegRec/GPZvRegMagnetField.html
is a simplified (but functional) version of the regulator on our TLs. You will notice that the transistor, Q1, is connected to the battery in the schematic. That transistor (and its associated circuit) needs to have a power source because it controls the "logic" in the regulator. It tells the SCRs when to conduct. When the battery is disconnected, the regulator cannot function with only the AC voltage coming in from the stator windings. Therefore, it shuts off. That's why you measured zero volts at the RR's output when the battery was disconnected.

Given that finding, and the fact that spanwah's other tests seem to indicate a functional stator, and RR, and battery, I'm still leaning toward the likelyhood of a wiring problem as the cause of the charging issue.

There you have it. Highly simplified, but I think (hope) it is accurate. :dowhat
I'll chime in here... with...

My usual response:

Listen to Six5.
 

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If my research on the web amounts to anything :coocoo, I'll try to explain why the RR is causing so much confusion in the following quotes. This is a learning exercise for me also, so please bear with me.




Agreed, such results are unexpected....and confusing.



Not necessarily. See below.





In a nut shell, the issue you are encountering with your RR "test," is that the typical motorcycle shunt-type regulator needs to be connected to the battery to do its job.

The voltage rectifier/regulator schematic at this web page
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/RegRec/GPZvRegMagnetField.html
is a simplified (but functional) version of the regulator on our TLs. You will notice that the transistor, Q1, is connected to the battery in the schematic. That transistor (and its associated circuit) needs to have a power source because it controls the "logic" in the regulator. It tells the SCRs when to conduct. When the battery is disconnected, the regulator cannot function with only the AC voltage coming in from the stator windings. Therefore, it shuts off. That's why you measured zero volts at the RR's output when the battery was disconnected.

Given that finding, and the fact that spanwah's other tests seem to indicate a functional stator, and RR, and battery, I'm still leaning toward the likelyhood of a wiring problem as the cause of the charging issue.

There you have it. Highly simplified, but I think (hope) it is accurate. :dowhat
thanks mate I,ll look again at all the connections this seems to be an Achilles heal of these bikes! wont buy a regulator now! will report back
 

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I'll chime in here... with...

My usual response:

Listen to Six5.

I am mate! its just ive had the same issue(dimming lights etc.) on a vfr400 nc30 which confused everyone which turned out to be the RR after weeks of hunting? but I agree maybe it is a wiring issue? so annoying!
 

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Discussion Starter #89
Ok well I had another look at everything today.

Initial measurements were:

12.72v ignition off
12.32v ignition on, engine off.
13.35v idling lights off
14.10v 5k rpm lights off
12.4 5k lights on

I measured voltage at each connection from the reg/rec along all wiring up to the battery and it was consistent. However when testing a little later 13.5v was the best measurement I got - as if it stopped outputting 14v anywhere. So is this reg/rec not working properly?

Who knows, but I don't have it in me to continue. Its cost me money in parts, in public transport, in missed opportunities for work and inability to get around in general (avg 1000 miles/month normally - I've barely put 750 on the TL since November). I can't afford any more time to get it running, been pointed towards a website of someone who is supposedly a electrical genius "Ferrets Electrickery" if anyones heard of him. Going to shoot him an email and see what happens.

Appreciate all the help and advice I've received, so thanks for taking the time.
 

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Ok well I had another look at everything today.

Initial measurements were:

12.72v ignition off
12.32v ignition on, engine off.
13.35v idling lights off
14.10v 5k rpm lights off
12.4 5k lights on

I measured voltage at each connection from the reg/rec along all wiring up to the battery and it was consistent. However when testing a little later 13.5v was the best measurement I got - as if it stopped outputting 14v anywhere. So is this reg/rec not working properly?

Who knows, but I don't have it in me to continue. Its cost me money in parts, in public transport, in missed opportunities for work and inability to get around in general (avg 1000 miles/month normally - I've barely put 750 on the TL since November). I can't afford any more time to get it running, been pointed towards a website of someone who is supposedly a electrical genius "Ferrets Electrickery" if anyones heard of him. Going to shoot him an email and see what happens.

Appreciate all the help and advice I've received, so thanks for taking the time.
that's exactly what we have! exactly the same values!!!!!
 

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Both,

Hot wire your lights with beefy wire... Read voltage drop. 2 volts is not right. You are losing it somewhere so just keep tracing till you find it! Like I said earlier look inside your switch and at all grounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
The thing is I'm not getting good voltage with the lights off - so there's more to it that a bad connection in the lighting system it seems.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
Bear in mind I have replaced the reg/rec with a new one, mosfet controlled from electrex, so it should be in working order.

Just had a reply from the Ferret guy, says he's booked solid for months.

I'm reluctant to take it to a garage, I have one in mind that I've used for all my bikes in the past, but I know its going to be a case of "£30 p/h and it takes as long as it takes".
 

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ah yes I forgot you have replaced it!

without looking myself I would be guessing at things

yeah the last thing you want is £30 an hour for as long as it takes! although an auto elecy will know where to look first
 

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Meth,

Charge mod installed? I'm out and about and don't want to read back... :laugh
 

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Ok well I had another look at everything today.

Initial measurements were:

12.72v ignition off
12.32v ignition on, engine off.
13.35v idling lights off
14.10v 5k rpm lights off
12.4 5k lights on

I measured voltage at each connection from the reg/rec along all wiring up to the battery and it was consistent.
However when testing a little later 13.5v was the best measurement I got - as if it stopped outputting 14v anywhere. So is this reg/rec not working properly?

......
Since you measured the voltage directly at the output of the regulator, that narrows the failure mode considerably. In my mind :coocoo, there are only three possible scenarios left.
1) The RR can't handle the additional headlight load = defective RR.
2) The stator is failing under the additional headlight load = defective stator.
3) The transmission lines (wires & connectors) between the stator and RR are becoming resistive. In turn, this inhibits the proper current from reaching the RR, so it is forced to reduce its output.

Since your RR is a new MOSFET variety, its failure is unlikely, but not impossible.

If you directly connected the stator wires to the RR with very good crimped or soldered connections, this is also an unlikely culprit.

If it were mine, at this point I would be load testing the stator. The normal stator tests are merely a resistance check and an unloaded voltage check. Stators can fail with an increased load placed upon them. Thanks to a clue from The Ring-In, this can be done with a household light bulb (60 to 100 Watts). Connect it between each phase of the disconnected stator wires (3 in all), while at the same time noting the AC voltage and the brightness of the bulb. This test is the same as when the AC voltage is measured from the stator, but now it is under a resistive load. All three phases should offer up the same values.


I understand you are frustrated with this project, but if you undertake this test, be sure to tell us your findings.
 
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