TLZone Forums banner

61 - 80 of 150 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,234 Posts
Its either that or a short. It does sound suspiciously like mine when the regulator went. It didn't fail outright but just went partially insane. Sometimes it charged. Sometimes it sucked the life out of everything and you never knew when it was going to do which.

:stupid

Yep. That's another possibility I forgot to mention. I have read of instances where the R/R fails after it warms up.

A relatively easy way to test for that condition is get the system warmed up by riding close to home, and then stop when you suspect it may be discharging and measure the chargnig voltage across the battery. Or just buy a cheap digital voltage monitor from ebay and tape it to your fairing to monitor the battery voltage as you ride.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,485 Posts
A good idea that. I suspect you could differentiate between a short and the R/R by seeing the pattern of any sudden voltage changes. A short would be more abrupt and probably intermittent whereas the R/R may tend to kind of fade in and out. No way to say for sure but its a possibility. Yo could also do things like hook up the meter, have the bike running and just nudge around various bits of the loom to see if the movement prompted any sudden changes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
Hi again,

In the niceset way possible, I was hoping I wouldn't have to visit this forum again anytime soon. Alas my fortune remains battling against me.

A quick recap from my last posts.

I replaced the 30a fuse holder and redid a bit of the wiring to secure the connections better. This changed nothing.

So I just went ahead and bought a replacement reg/rec, mosfet controlled, from electrex (a bargain at £90 inc P+P :/)

Now, when I was fitting it, removing the spade connectors from the old reg/rec, I didn't realise I still had the bike switched on, so two of the spade connectors brushed against each other and a couple of sparks flew. I turned it off, connected everything up properly, turned bike on, everything seemed to work ok.

What I didn't realise was that these sparks blew the 30a fuse between reg/rec and battery, which lead to me breaking down halfway to work and since there was absolutely nothing going back to the battery, even jump starting it only lasted a couple of minutes before it died again. So I replaced the fuse, recharged the battery, and off I went again.

Things were going well, got to over a week of daily usage with headlights on constantly without issue. I did notice that the gear indicator would dim, and then go bright again during riding - as if the reg/rec was kicking in when the battery required it to - at least thats what I figured was going on anyway.
Bike started first time everytime and as I say was riding great up until yesterday when halfway through a journey I noticed the rev meter going crazy again, so it was no surprise was a couple more miles up the road it died completely and I had to push it the last mile and a half home.

I removed the battery cover to see if there was anything obvious - I immediately noticed the spade connector which connected to the battery had come off the end of the fuse holder wire - my crimping evidenty not as sturdy as I thought, so I re-crimped it and soldered the end for good measure.

Drove to work today without lights on for the journey there, and with lights on for the return home. Just before I got home the rev meter starts playing up again, and when I get home I turn off the bike, go inside to fetch some tools, then when I try to start it again just get click of the relay - dead battery again.

I put my spare battery in and test voltages at idle - 13.5v, revving upto 4.5k I get 14.4v. With lights on I get 12.3v, only rising to 12.6v at 4.5k.

It seems the lights are draining too much juice (headlight relay mod already fitted in case you haven't read the previous 7 pages (and who can blame you!)) so that as soon as I put them on I'm starting a timer for the battery to die on me.

At this point I figure I have to start from scratch since I've done quite a few things since my OP, however I won't have a chance to do this properly till the weekend on account of having no daylight to work by, and even using a torch it tends to be pissing it down with rain so not best conditions to work in.

What I;m wondering in the mean time is whether the shorted spade connectors when fitting the new reg/rec damaged the new reg/rec (although I'm wondering if I would have noticed this sooner if this was the case - I did get a good 9 days out of it, which is a record so far), or whether the loose spade connector could have damaged it (on account of the voltage having nowhere to go).

Any other suggestions/tests welcome.

Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
I am thinking you have some corroded connection in your light circuit adding resistance. I know electrics are a pain but your reg / rect is working fine with 14+ volts so look over the lighting connections again....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter #65
Only thing I can think of would be the prongs of the headlights themselves where the harness plugs in, as the remainder of the wiring has been replaced with the relay harness.

Surely would have to be quite some corrosion/resistance to drop 2v though no?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Only thing I can think of would be the prongs of the headlights themselves where the harness plugs in, as the remainder of the wiring has been replaced with the relay harness.

Surely would have to be quite some corrosion/resistance to drop 2v though no?
I broke open my switch and had quite a bit of gunk on the rocker switch. Maybe jump wire from battery to plug and watch drop there to test both our theories?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,234 Posts
Once again, excellent details Methtical. :thumbup Are you a writer by trade? :laugh

.....

...
Things were going well, got to over a week of daily usage with headlights on constantly without issue. I did notice that the gear indicator would dim, and then go bright again during riding - as if the reg/rec was kicking in when the battery required it to - at least thats what I figured was going on anyway.
At any time during your electrical adventures with this TL, have you replaced the main loom ground that connects to the engine case? There is a single spade connector in that wire that is known for causing odd lighting and instrument behavior, because that path to ground is inconsistent. Also look for corrosion under the ring terminal that is bolted to the engine case.



.....

.....
I removed the battery cover to see if there was anything obvious - I immediately noticed the spade connector which connected to the battery had come off the end of the fuse holder wire - my crimping evidenty not as sturdy as I thought, so I re-crimped it and soldered the end for good measure.
If we didn't mention it before, it is a good idea to solder all the connections in the charging circuit - or use a quality crimping tool. :coocoo


.....

.....
I put my spare battery in and test voltages at idle - 13.5v, revving upto 4.5k I get 14.4v. With lights on I get 12.3v, only rising to 12.6v at 4.5k.

It seems the lights are draining too much juice (headlight relay mod already fitted in case you haven't read the previous 7 pages (and who can blame you!)) so that as soon as I put them on I'm starting a timer for the battery to die on me.

...
.....

Cheers!
The lights themselves are not the problem. The charging system can handle them when it is working properly. There is either another path to ground (demanding extra current), or the charging system is failing elsewhere. And by "failing," I mean the headlight current is causing the voltage to be dropped across a resistance you have yet to discover.

Try this. While monitoring the voltage at the battery. Set the engine idle speed up to 3000 rpm so you have both hands to work with. Now Use your volt meter to measure the voltage directly at the output of the regulator and note the difference between that reading and the reading across the battery. Also, measure both points with lights ON, and with lights OFF.

Let us know what you find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Six5,

I'm posting my Six5 approved grounding mod again... This time I think you know where I'm heading...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,234 Posts
Six5,

I'm posting my Six5 approved grounding mod again... This time I think you know where I'm heading...
rxf610, I meant to say something the last time when I saw that photo....that little white, single, spade connector doesn't look like the one on the main loom ground wire. It looks more like the connector on the oil pressure switch wire. :confused However, with your engine having been swapped with an R, anything is possible. :laugh Now, we just need to teach you how to solder. :lol


At any rate, I think Methtical will get the idea.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
rxf610, I meant to say something the last time when I saw that photo....that little white, single, spade connector doesn't look like the one on the main loom ground wire. It looks more like the connector on the oil pressure switch wire. :confused However, with your engine having been swapped with an R, anything is possible. :laugh Now, we just need to teach you how to solder. :lol


At any rate, I think Methtical will get the idea.
It's a work in progress! :rotfl

I'll solder tomorrow and post a new pic. Interesting that the spade connector isn't "factory". Didn't look it. Must have been a byproduct of my motor switch.

Meth,

Try getting some heavy gauge wire and grounding your lights to see if that's the problem. I was "right" thinking your lights were getting resistance, but my usual motto is to listen to Six5. So it sounds like your ground is the path of resistance here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter #71
At any time during your electrical adventures with this TL, have you replaced the main loom ground that connects to the engine case? There is a single spade connector in that wire that is known for causing odd lighting and instrument behavior, because that path to ground is inconsistent. Also look for corrosion under the ring terminal that is bolted to the engine case.
I hadn't, but reading back through the thread I do notice it has been mentioned before with rfx610s pics.

With this in mind, I cut out the single spade connector, and just crimped the existing wire together - I know the idea is to replace the wire with a bigger gauge, but I don't have the daylight to tear the whole harness apart and trace it in both directions at the moment, so figured I'd just see if removing the connector itself would make any difference. It didn't.


Try this. While monitoring the voltage at the battery. Set the engine idle speed up to 3000 rpm so you have both hands to work with. Now Use your volt meter to measure the voltage directly at the output of the regulator and note the difference between that reading and the reading across the battery. Also, measure both points with lights ON, and with lights OFF.
Haven't had a chance to try this yet, started to rain and I was already fed up lol.

Now to add some more element to the equation - I wondered if the headlight socket I'd plugged into the headlight relay mod could be at fault, so I switched it over to the other - no difference, however I did notice whilst moving the wires the headlights flickered on and off and I could hear the relays switching - intermittent power, thus loose connection.

I narrowed it down to a black block next to the big yellow on the left hand side, moving this around would cause intermittent power cuts to the lights. I opened it up and took the best pics I could with a shit camera phone in the dark. Whether corrosion in this connection could be responsible for whats going on I dont know, either way how I would ever go about replacing that block is another question, unless I just crimped all the connections together....

Thing is whilst testing I noticed I was no longer getting 14v with headlights off even at 4k, was 13.5v at best.

What I think is best to do at this stage is start all over again. I'm going to try and get the day off work friday and completely remove and redo the charging mod and recheck all connections as well as test the voltage coming out at the battery and compare to that coming out of the reg/rec. Will replace wiring for main loom ground as well if I can.

If after all that I'm still none the wiser then I might have to conceed defeat and get a professional in - I've spent close to £200 so far and still at square one, at first I was frustrated, then annoyed, now I'm just downright fed up.

Anyways, pics of shitty block connector below, I'll report back once I've had a chance to redo everything.

Cheers guys,
IMAG0164.jpg IMAG0166.jpg IMAG0170.jpg IMAG0172.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,067 Posts
all them connector blocks are troublesome

Almost everyone has an issue with them at some point

I'm not too sure of the configuration on the R but there is a few of them up front on the S and every year I pull them apart and clean them up

I had my bike die on me while out and wiggling the wires brought it back to life......was a pain in the arse to get home
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Methtical,

Here is another idea. Measure resistance between each side of the problem connector with it plugged together. Put your leads down the back of each (where your hands are.. down the wire entrance and exit holes) Should be basically 0 ohms or clean flow of power. If say one of those connections is horribly corroded / broken / gunked, you could spot it. You can actually remove the female spade with a very very small flat head or needle. Apply light pressure on the clip by pulling back on the wire, then slide your tool in the empty space below the connector (not where the male lead would enter, but the empty space below that). When you touch the locking tab it will slide the connector out backwards quite easily. Maybe soak them in Coke (or something highly acidic to etch off the gunk) overnight to clean up the inner bits you couldn't get a wire brush into. Like Stu said, those connectors are gremlins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
this is whats happening to my lads tlr but we havnt done the charging mod ? new battery fitted reading 13,5 when running put lights on at 4000rpm 12.1v? just gone to work again tonight dash lights flickered again and nearly stalled he has made it to work!!! hope he gets back tomorrow fecking bike!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,234 Posts
.....

I narrowed it down to a black block next to the big yellow on the left hand side, moving this around would cause intermittent power cuts to the lights. I opened it up and took the best pics I could with a shit camera phone in the dark. Whether corrosion in this connection could be responsible for whats going on I dont know, either way how I would ever go about replacing that block is another question, unless I just crimped all the connections together....
What's going on here is that you are suffering the damage that occurred BEFORE the headlight relay mod was installed. The connector you have pictured goes to the right-hand switch pod. The over heated terminal in it belongs to the Yellow/White wire. That is the one that supplied current to the headlights, so the terminals often over heat and melt the connectors. The connectors and terminals are available from easternbeaver.com ( http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/090_Connectors/090_connectors.html ), among other places. You can bypass that one wire around the connector, or replace the entire connector. It is not that costly, but you will need a decent terminal crimper tool to properly do it.

Now that you have installed the HL Relay Mod, that same circuit now controls the relays that connect the headlights to the battery. However, the damage is done, so the terminal on the Yel/Wht wire is no longer making reliable contact. In turn, this is causing your HL relays to make and break contact.

That same circuit also travels through the Yellow connector and the large White one, so check those while you are in there. Also make sure all the fuses fit snugly in their respective terminals in the fuse box.



Thing is whilst testing I noticed I was no longer getting 14v with headlights off even at 4k, was 13.5v at best.

What I think is best to do at this stage is start all over again. ..... and completely remove and redo the charging mod and recheck all connections as well as test the voltage coming out at the battery and compare to that coming out of the reg/rec. Will replace wiring for main loom ground as well if I can.

...

Cheers guys,
View attachment 38550
I wouldn't say "start over," but certainly verify what you have done up to this point. Also solder any questionable connections, and/or high current connections.

Keep in mind that the headlight failures are not directly related to the battery charging problem. You seem to be experiencing two separate problems. However, your testing will narrow it down. Hang in there. :banghead :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
youre not alone with this shite problem mate I had to go 60 mile round trip this morning at 5.30am and swap a battery so my lad can get home! I thought if he rides it back on side lights only should be fine? he reckons close to home it started doing it slightly clocks flickering I m wandering if the rectifier is breaking down when hot? the tlr we thought we love is now becoming a major issue as its got to be reliable for his work ?
we don't need this healight mod as its in the uk so we turn the lights off and it always starts apart from this morning but after 30 mile(that's why I think rectifier hot) starts to play up flickering etc.. but this time bike never started not enough power to turn the motor over!!! its had a new battery the same its reading 13.5 at 4000 revs which seems to be normal(lights off) for these but as soon as you put the lights on drops to 12.1v ! this bike will be hot soon with some matches and petrol!!!!!!! I can not believe that a big company like Suzuki fit shite parts everyone reckons the japs are reliable? I beg to differ!! all the Hondas(the most reliable apparently) we ve had have been trouble !!! that's why we switched !! ive had aprilias with 45,000 mile and now currently running a ktm with 36,000 mile on with no issues??? japs reliable? not in my mind!!!!:banghead:banghead
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
right someone may help here! checked the stator output today around 58 at 3000rpm on each phase all equal!!! then connected back up to the rectifier and disconnected the output end of the regulator/rectifier and received 0 - 1 volts thinking it must be that(rectifier fecked) because if you do the mod from the rectifier to the battery there its around 14v !!!!! whats made me confused is if you connect it back up to the connection which geos to the battery end you get 13.9v??????????? surely disconnected from the output end of regulator/rectifier to red cables/2 black cables it should read 14 v or there abouts? instead of nothing???
im thinking rectifier???but why show 13.9volts when reconnected and at the battery help????? did a diode test and it seems to be fine? puzzle continues!!

which is the best regulator to buy r1?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
right someone may help here! checked the stator output today around 58 at 3000rpm on each phase all equal!!! then connected back up to the rectifier and disconnected the output end of the regulator/rectifier and received 0 - 1 volts thinking it must be that(rectifier fecked) because if you do the mod from the rectifier to the battery there its around 14v !!!!! whats made me confused is if you connect it back up to the connection which geos to the battery end you get 13.9v??????????? surely disconnected from the output end of regulator/rectifier to red cables/2 black cables it should read 14 v or there abouts? instead of nothing???
im thinking rectifier???but why show 13.9volts when reconnected and at the battery help????? did a diode test and it seems to be fine? puzzle continues!!

which is the best regulator to buy r1?
If you are getting basically no volts with the output side unplugged (but the input side plugged in and the engine running), then your R/R is toast. You should only get no volts output when it is NOT running. You are correct in that it should be reading near 14v. When it is plugged in, the voltage you are reading is probably the voltage from the battery flowing BACK to the R/R, not any charging voltage coming out. Are you reading 13.9v with the battery on zero draw (key off, sitting there)? I am surprised though that you can make such a long journey w/o the R/R regenerating ANY power. I would assume the coil would be starved much sooner with no charging...

Still your voltages falling so quickly on lights seems to indicate you have a very similar problem to Methtical. BAD WIRING somewhere in the loom. Also, remember the headlight mod cut while starting is simply a helpful byproduct and the relay STILL HELPS. You wouldn't need to tie the starting cut in, since as you said you can just flip the switch, but the AMPERAGE still flows through your trash wiring. You want the VOLTAGE of the switch to trigger the relay, but the AMPERAGE to flow through higher quality wiring...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,067 Posts
If you are getting basically no volts with the output side unplugged (but the input side plugged in and the engine running), then your R/R is toast. You should only get no volts output when it is NOT running. You are correct in that it should be reading near 14v. When it is plugged in, the voltage you are reading is probably the voltage from the battery flowing BACK to the R/R, not any charging voltage coming out. Are you reading 13.9v with the battery on zero draw (key off, sitting there)? I am surprised though that you can make such a long journey w/o the R/R regenerating ANY power. I would assume the coil would be starved much sooner with no charging...

Still your voltages falling so quickly on lights seems to indicate you have a very similar problem to Methtical. BAD WIRING somewhere in the loom. Also, remember the headlight mod cut while starting is simply a helpful byproduct and the relay STILL HELPS. You wouldn't need to tie the starting cut in, since as you said you can just flip the switch, but the AMPERAGE still flows through your trash wiring. You want the VOLTAGE of the switch to trigger the relay, but the AMPERAGE to flow through higher quality wiring...
right someone may help here! checked the stator output today around 58 at 3000rpm on each phase all equal!!! then connected back up to the rectifier and disconnected the output end of the regulator/rectifier and received 0 - 1 volts thinking it must be that(rectifier fecked) because if you do the mod from the rectifier to the battery there its around 14v !!!!! whats made me confused is if you connect it back up to the connection which geos to the battery end you get 13.9v??????????? surely disconnected from the output end of regulator/rectifier to red cables/2 black cables it should read 14 v or there abouts? instead of nothing???
im thinking rectifier???but why show 13.9volts when reconnected and at the battery help????? did a diode test and it seems to be fine? puzzle continues!!

which is the best regulator to buy r1?


The way I read that is that he gets charging voltage when plugged in but no voltage when measuring with a multimeter across the terminals at the output side of the reg/rec which to me suggests it been measured wrong
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
The way I read that is that he gets charging voltage when plugged in but no voltage when measuring with a multimeter across the terminals at the output side of the reg/rec which to me suggests it been measured wrong
Agreed...

Doubtful if his R/R is bad would he ever get to 14+v. Even a fully charged battery would be upper 13s. And after a crank wouldn't ever get that high without charging help.
 
61 - 80 of 150 Posts
Top