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Discussion Starter #21
It did occur to me that the repeated draining of it would not have done it any favours. I have the battery that was initially in it that I thought was at fault - but obviously further developments have shown that it was probably ok. Will be an easy test to charge that up and see how that performs under the same conditions.
 

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Most likely. If its any good at all charge it and just watch what happens with just the dash lights on. If you still see the voltage falling off in the same way then maybe you do have a short. First thing I'd try if this is the case if just stick a hand round the coils. If one is warm then that may be your problem.
 

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Ignition coils. Under the air box. Its a lot of screws so do the check before you get carried away taking anything else off. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Oh yeah I can get down there, had to remove it when after lifting the fuel tank a bolt and the spacer fell down under there so had to go retrieve them :laugh
 

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Put a voltmeter across the battery terminals while cranking the engine over. That will give you a quick, accurate indicator of how healthy the battery is.

How low does the voltage go?
 

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Was 14.23v with ignition off

If the bike won't start with a freshly charged battery then does that not rule out the Reg/Rec since thats not being engaged at this point?
Methtical,

I think that is safe to say. Not 100%, but since once it starts (using an alternate "battery" of sorts) the R/R is doing its job by putting out good charging voltage.

I would almost say 14.23V cold battery is high :confused? Another indication of a bad battery? Again, novice electrical advice, so take it with a grain of salt. But I just measured mine. 12.77V. Charged full less than 48 hours ago. And I know my battery is good...
 

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14v is a little high unless its an 8-cell unit with one dead cell.

The basic electrochemistry of a lead-acid cell would tend to give a max of about 2.1V per cell at full charge with no load. This would mean you can expect about 12.5V from a good standard battery. Charging voltage should be around 2.3-2.5V per cell so if you stick much above 15V in you end up frying the battery.

We also have to verify the accuracy of your meter. What's your jump start source? You might be able to use that as a comparison.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
The jump start source is the spare battery, that measures about 12.3 sat resting, bear in mind its been used to jump a few times now and not charged at all.

So, I come home today and decide to measure across the battery whilst starting as suggested to see what the drop was whilst starting.

With ignition on only, measures now at 13.5v. I hit the ignition and I shit you not it fires up in an instant. Voltage dropped to 11v during this then was above 14v again. All I had done was wheel it out the back from where its parked. I'm going to try it again in the morning see what it does then, and also charge my other battery overnight tonight so thats ready for comparison as well. The rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper at the moment, doesn't want to give me an easy time thats for sure!

Appreciate all the help by the way, I wouldn't have got anywhere near this far otherwise, so thanks.
 

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..... The rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper at the moment, doesn't want to give me an easy time thats for sure!

......
It's a TL. If you wanted an "easy time" you should have bought a Honda. :lol:lol


Seriously, they can be a little temperamental at times, but once you get it sorted, it will prove to be very reliable.


Regarding the help you are getting, much of the credit goes to you, due to the excellent feedback you provide in your posts. Keep it up. :thumbup


Looking forward to the reults in the morning.....
 

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Discussion Starter #31
So I was running late for work on the Friday so didnt have time to test the bike out, then was at a works xmas party, so was far too hungover to do anything bike related on the Saturday :)

Which brings us to today, Measured voltage across battery with ignition on, headlights off, was 13.5v, started the bike, voltage dropped to just above 11, but bike fired up in 2 seconds. Was measuring 14v idling. Took it for a short drive, a equivalent distance to my work commute and then left it to sit for a few hours and tried it again, once more starts up with no trouble.

So.... it would appear that the issue has been resolved through the charging mod alone. I will reserve complete confidence until I do a couple of runsn to work and back, anything past 3 days would be a record since owning the bike so if it makes it that far then it will be safe to say the problems solved.

I did receieve the relays I had ordered though, and looking over the headlight relay mod, it seems the principle behind it is to cut the power to the headlights whilst hitting the starter switch to allow more pwoer to go towards starting the bike up - my question is does simply switching the headlights off before starting not achieve the same thing?
 

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It does. The headlight relay mod is more for US markets where they don't have the option to turn the lights off as standard.

The idea is to isolate the lights when the starter button is pressed. Its a way of trying to wring the last bit of juice out for starting.
IMHO its wishful thinking in some ways. Compared to the current draw from the starter the lights put a relatively insignificant load on the whole process.
You are talking about 1 or 2 amps and a half a volt drop versus a couple of hundred amps for the starter. Unless your battery is weak in the first place or there's some other deficiency in the wiring its not going to make a vast difference. But, in some cases, every little helps.

Paradoxically, for those of us using Lithium batteries the advice when the weather is cold is actually to make sure the lights are on for about 30s before starting. It raises the internal temperature of the cells which don't function at their best below about 5C. Turning the lights on brings the cells to life.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
It does. The headlight relay mod is more for US markets where they don't have the option to turn the lights off as standard.

The idea is to isolate the lights when the starter button is pressed. Its a way of trying to wring the last bit of juice out for starting.
IMHO its wishful thinking in some ways. Compared to the current draw from the starter the lights put a relatively insignificant load on the whole process.
You are talking about 1 or 2 amps and a half a volt drop versus a couple of hundred amps for the starter. Unless your battery is weak in the first place or there's some other deficiency in the wiring its not going to make a vast difference. But, in some cases, every little helps.

Paradoxically, for those of us using Lithium batteries the advice when the weather is cold is actually to make sure the lights are on for about 30s before starting. It raises the internal temperature of the cells which don't function at their best below about 5C. Turning the lights on brings the cells to life.

Interesting thanks.

So probably not worth the bother to implement this in a UK mode since I can just flick the switch off? Relays only cost me £10 so not as if its a big loss, besides I can still use one for the "Plus" mod that seems worthwhile as well.
 

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The headlight relay mod also takes load off the wires running through the starter relay causing less heat build up etc

IMO its worth it as you can see the difference in how bright the headlights are once done and is better for night riding too

I think the connector on the starter relayis your problem with starting and removing it and putting it back has gave it a decent connection allowing the power to flow

Its evident it's been heating up by the melting of the plug in one of the pics
 

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...
it seems the principle behind it is to cut the power to the headlights whilst hitting the starter switch to allow more pwoer to go towards starting the bike up - my question is does simply switching the headlights off before starting not achieve the same thing?
The relay that cuts power to the headlights was an after thought. It was not the original intent of the modification.


It does. The headlight relay mod is more for US markets where they don't have the option to turn the lights off as standard.

......
Not quite right snowblind. See below.....



Interesting thanks.

So probably not worth the bother to implement this in a UK mode since I can just flick the switch off? ......
On the contrary, it IS worth the bother. See below....



The headlight relay mod also takes load off the wires running through the starter relay causing less heat build up etc

IMO its worth it as you can see the difference in how bright the headlights are once done and is better for night riding too

......

:stupid

The Headlight Relay Mod was developed to bypass the poorly rated design of the OEM loom. If you examine the path of the headlight current, you will notice that there are FOUR gang connectors, one dimmer switch, one ignition switch, (plus one lights ON/Off switch on Euro models), and the starter relay connector which it must pass through - not to mention a number of undersized wires to carry the load. All of these points offer resistance to the flow of current. Yes, when everything is new and shiny it is a very small resistance, but after a few years have gone by, the road grime, salts, and good ol' wet UK weather will turn those same terminals and switches into formidable obstacles for getting reliable power to the headlights.

Since the dual headlight systems of the US, UK, and Canada draw a constant nine amps of current whenever the lights are on, it is imperative that all the connection points be pristine. Many of you know it is not at all uncommon to hear of "dim headlights" or "flickering headlights." That happens because the questionable connections in the OEM loom are corroding and becoming resistive, and that means they will begin to get hot. Gradually, these hot spots restrict the current going to the headlights and ultimately burn up wires and connectors.

Enter the Headlight Relay Mod - It reroutes the nine amps of headlight current through a dedicated circuit that is properly sized to carry the load, and it is done with a minimum of potential resistance points. Typically, there are only a fuse holder, the relay and its connections, and the headlight receptacles. Therefore, the actual voltage at the headlight is very close to the same level that is across the battery - somewhere around 14 volts when the engine is cruising. That means brighter lights that don't flicker. :devious It also means there is no more fretting about which connector will over heat next and burn up, since the OEM portion of the headlight circuit only controls the relay's coil now. :thumbup

The "headlight cut off while cranking the engine over" feature is just a fringe benefit that D'Ecosse threw in for good measure. The real benefit of the mod is removing the headlight current from the OEM loom.


See D'Ecosse's thread for the proper implementation of this mod.
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/frequent-tl-mods/111776-crappy-suzuki-wiring.html

And just for reference, here is the Charging Mod.
http://www.tlzone.net/forums/frequent-tl-mods/111499-definitive-charging-system-diagnostic-upgrade-thread.html


:ytiller
 

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I take the point and I do understand the motivation. The moron inside me says this also equates to replacing crap wiring with more wiring. The better, albeit more difficult, solution is to replace the crap wiring with better wiring. One of the goals of the original loom design will have been to use as little and as few wires as possible. The downside of that is that its built closer to the minimum tolerances and so age and decay will be exaggerated. Its a function of the law of project management. This states that any project is governed by 3 factors: money, time and quality. The "product" of the 3 is a constant such that if you choose to enhance any one factor then another must suffer. If time is of the essence and you want to preserve quality it will cost more. If you want to save time and money then quality suffers. This is a case in point. To build the working loom to a given price imposed a limit on the quality of the components.


Philosophy 101 on a dank Monday morning. :)
 

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I take the point and I do understand the motivation. The moron inside me says this also equates to replacing crap wiring with more wiring. The better, albeit more difficult, solution is to replace the crap wiring with better wiring. One of the goals of the original loom design will have been to use as little and as few wires as possible. The downside of that is that its built closer to the minimum tolerances and so age and decay will be exaggerated. Its a function of the law of project management. This states that any project is governed by 3 factors: money, time and quality. The "product" of the 3 is a constant such that if you choose to enhance any one factor then another must suffer. If time is of the essence and you want to preserve quality it will cost more. If you want to save time and money then quality suffers. This is a case in point. To build the working loom to a given price imposed a limit on the quality of the components.


Philosophy 101 on a dank Monday morning. :)
And Project Management 101! =P

Price wise the mod is not that bad, especially if you haven't done the charging mod. It costs almost nothing. My younger brother has a 250cc scooter. We were having the same problems exhibited by a lackluster charge system as our final hump to put that thing back on the road. It was the longest wildest journey on that rebuild, and our last hurdle! Just when we were going to throw in the towel, I mocked it up from the loom I created for my TL. Just by rerouting the charge function bought us nearly 2 volts at his idle and I haven't jump started him since...

Then with the bigger projects, you can just do what I do. Slowly stockpile parts until you have all the pieces laughing at you in the garage. Then procrastinate further. :laugh
 

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Procrastination is the thief of time.

We'll nick the bastard just as soon as we get around to it. :)
 

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Let me be clear here: the headlight mod DOES NEED 2 relays - (2 top in Decosse's schematic)
The third relay (bottom) is a relay that will cut off the headlights when you push on the ignition button. That one is not needed if you have a a headlight switch. It is not recommended to use that mod with HID's.



Methtical:
As Six5 has stated, your starter relay connector show fatigue and should be replaced. I'm willing to bet that's where your issue is.
 

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Brainless,

I think the cut relay takes the ground loop amperage out of the equation too (shown in diagram as black on top and subsequently used to merely trigger the lights circuit after the mod is installed and known to cause issues), which as Six5 noted is another benefit. The cut while starting is merely a byproduct of good electrical design by D'Ecosse.

Look at one of the stock grounds.



The relay cut to ground alleviates a convoluted path to ground back through the system. Six5 will correct me if I am wrong, but the "facts" I am stating hopefully are just paraphrases of Six5's lovely explanation.
 
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