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2002 Tl1000r charging/electrical issues

41067 Views 149 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  CrashB, 
M
So bought a TL1000r couple of weeks ago, 2 days later try to start it up after work and it wouldn't fire up, so had to get jump start it to get it going again.

So anyway I figured it was simply a case of worn down battery, bought a Motobatt to replace it, fitted that then used the bike perhaps 5-6 times since then travelling 6-8 miles each time, finish work a couple of days later and again will not start, it tries to turn over but seems just not enough to get it going. I tried bumping a few times then retried electric start and fortunately it fired up this time.

My limited knowledge suggested that the Reg/Rec is was screwed and so wasn’t recharging the battery whilst its in motion, either that or the Datatool alarm is sapping all power from the battery - though I'd be surprised if it could drain a brand new battery in 3 days.

I was directed to the Charging issues diagnostic thread on this forum, and came up with the following results:

With ignition off, unloaded battery = 12.96v
Ignition on, headlights on , not running = 12.13v
Bike started, running at idle = Went to I think 13.5v at idle and dropped to 13.3v at 5k rpm - these are rough figures as I can't remember exactly but it was certainly above 13v.

On the reg/rec there was no continuity between any of the 3 pins versus any of the 4 pins.
Each of the 3 pins read about 2.3ohms on my meter. None of them showed continuity when tested against ground.
Voltage readings at idle were 27v at each pin. At 5.5k rpm was around 90v.
I haven’t tested the stator itself yet – the prospect of having to drain the oil put me off with the ever dwindling daylight I had.
Checked the spark plugs and no evidence of fouling, replaced them anyway.


Went ahead and did the charging mod described on this forum directing the output of the reg/rec directly back to the battery. Drove the bike to work the next day ok, but again come home time the bike would not start. Had to jump it again.

I wondered if the charging mod had been done properly - measuring across battery with engine idle gave ~13v, not the 14v this mod is supposed to give. To try and test if the wiring was sound I disconnected the wires leading to the positive terminal and checked the voltage running down it whilst the engine was idling - only got 0.8v - I've no idea if this is a legit was to test the mod, but if it is, then thinking maybe that voltage isn't right, or suggests the Reg/Rec is actually screwed.

I charged up the battery overnight with the intent to measure it at different intervals throughout the day – before turning engine on, at idle, then again when I got to work with engine still running and without, then half way through the day, then just before I went home to see if I could spot the point where the battery was being drained, however this morning even after a fresh charge the bike wouldn’t start.

Measurements wise I got as far as:


Freshly charged battery: 14.06v
Connected to bike, ignition off: 14.06v
Ignition on, lights on: 12.6v

At this point I tried starting the bike, I'd forgotten the lights were on, this probably was the problem.

Ignition on, lights off: 13.03v

So the mere act of turning the headlights on seems to make the battery drop by ~1.5v, I'm guessing starting the bike up without lights on is enough to get it going but driving with lights on saps it so that by the time I get where I'm going the battery is already too drained to do much else.

So, I think I need to look into this headlight mod to solve this. I still don't understand why I have to do all these mods just to have a functioning bike.

Tempted to buy a replacement mosfet regulated reg/rec anyway, but they are expensive and this bike is eating money like there is no tomorrow so don’t really want to gamble that much on the off chance it might solve it.

Any help appreciated, I’m desperate now and losing sleep thinking of the money I paid for it, and continue to spend on it, and its basically a write off at the moment 
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NGagne
I had simirlar problem with My bike, I would try some other test like:
- Check every connector and make sure that they are free of corrosion.

- Try to mesure the voltage when you start you bike, if it drop to much your ECU will not have the required current to activate the spark plug, injector, etc. I dont rememeber the exact number but below 10v is a problem for sure. It can be a sign of a bad battery, not likely because new. i solve that problem by instaling a HEADLIGHT OFF DURING START MOD. (You can TEST if it will solve the problem by disconnecting the 2 headlight connector bulb and give it a try or turn completely off you head light if you can.)

- Try to Jump start your bike with his own battery ( I know it sound stupid...) What you have to do is connect the jumper cable on your battery (your battery can stay in place and must be connected to the bike), connect other negatif end to the frame or engine close to the Starter, turn the key ON and apply curent the positive on the starter wire close to the starter. TAKE YOUR TIME IT IS DANGEROUS... If it start that way it will indicate a Starter relay problem or corrosion on the connector somewhere.

Good luck let us know more detail...
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Pat Man TLR
Welcome. Check your yellow and your black connector under the left front turn signal cover also check your ground under the left side pannel close to where the coolant hose come out from the frame.
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snowblind
Looks for Ring-in's trick with a mains light-bulb to test the stator. I'd also check the 4-way connector for the starter relay. Its water trap.
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M
It sucks because at the moment I'm having to wait until the weekends so I have some daylight to see what the hell I'm doing. I have some friends who have offered to help me with this at the weekend, so I think its going to involve a complete strip down and testing of all connections and plugs and components, whilst I'm there I'll have them check my Charger mod as well as implement the Headlight relay mod, "+" mod and grounding mod to give me the best possible chance of getting juice back to the battery and the most power when trying to start it up - it is pretty cold in the mornings at the moment so no doubt that isn't helping the situation.

Not having any luck finding the mains light bulb stator test though :/

Oh and thanks for all the replies so far as well.
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snowblind
The useful info is on page 7-9 of the manual. Anyway, there's the 3 wires coming out of the generator. Connector on the end. Should be able to pick any two and either stick a meter across or find a regular mains light bulb and hook that up. The output should be 70V @5000rpm. If the light bulb lights then you've got useful output. Care obviously as 70V is enough to give you a decent kick.
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Brainless
8
Methtical said:
So bought a TL1000r couple of weeks ago, 2 days later try to start it up after work and it wouldn't fire up, so had to get jump start it to get it going again.

So anyway I figured it was simply a case of worn down battery, bought a Motobatt to replace it, fitted that then used the bike perhaps 5-6 times since then travelling 6-8 miles each time, finish work a couple of days later and again will not start, it tries to turn over but seems just not enough to get it going. I tried bumping a few times then retried electric start and fortunately it fired up this time.

My limited knowledge suggested that the Reg/Rec is was screwed and so wasn’t recharging the battery whilst its in motion, either that or the Datatool alarm is sapping all power from the battery - though I'd be surprised if it could drain a brand new battery in 3 days.

I was directed to the Charging issues diagnostic thread on this forum, and came up with the following results:

With ignition off, unloaded battery = 12.96v
Ignition on, headlights on , not running = 12.13v
Bike started, running at idle = Went to I think 13.5v at idle and dropped to 13.3v at 5k rpm - these are rough figures as I can't remember exactly but it was certainly above 13v.

On the reg/rec there was no continuity between any of the 3 pins versus any of the 4 pins.
Each of the 3 pins read about 2.3ohms on my meter. None of them showed continuity when tested against ground.
Voltage readings at idle were 27v at each pin. At 5.5k rpm was around 90v.
I haven’t tested the stator itself yet – the prospect of having to drain the oil put me off with the ever dwindling daylight I had.
Checked the spark plugs and no evidence of fouling, replaced them anyway.


Went ahead and did the charging mod described on this forum directing the output of the reg/rec directly back to the battery. Drove the bike to work the next day ok, but again come home time the bike would not start. Had to jump it again.

I wondered if the charging mod had been done properly - measuring across battery with engine idle gave ~13v, not the 14v this mod is supposed to give. To try and test if the wiring was sound I disconnected the wires leading to the positive terminal and checked the voltage running down it whilst the engine was idling - only got 0.8v - I've no idea if this is a legit was to test the mod, but if it is, then thinking maybe that voltage isn't right, or suggests the Reg/Rec is actually screwed.

I charged up the battery overnight with the intent to measure it at different intervals throughout the day – before turning engine on, at idle, then again when I got to work with engine still running and without, then half way through the day, then just before I went home to see if I could spot the point where the battery was being drained, however this morning even after a fresh charge the bike wouldn’t start.

Measurements wise I got as far as:


Freshly charged battery: 14.06v
Connected to bike, ignition off: 14.06v
Ignition on, lights on: 12.6v

At this point I tried starting the bike, I'd forgotten the lights were on, this probably was the problem.

Ignition on, lights off: 13.03v

So the mere act of turning the headlights on seems to make the battery drop by ~1.5v, I'm guessing starting the bike up without lights on is enough to get it going but driving with lights on saps it so that by the time I get where I'm going the battery is already too drained to do much else.

So, I think I need to look into this headlight mod to solve this. I still don't understand why I have to do all these mods just to have a functioning bike.

Tempted to buy a replacement mosfet regulated reg/rec anyway, but they are expensive and this bike is eating money like there is no tomorrow so don’t really want to gamble that much on the off chance it might solve it.

Any help appreciated, I’m desperate now and losing sleep thinking of the money I paid for it, and continue to spend on it, and its basically a write off at the moment 
Click to expand...
This is one of the greatest issue reporting post I've seen in a long time. Thanks for taking the time.

That said: IMWO

Ignition on, lights on: 12.6v
Ignition on, lights off: 13.03v
Click to expand...
This tells me there's definitely something wrong with the headlight system.

BUT as you mentioned you just bought the bike, I would also highly suggest you bring the battery to a shop that can load test it and make sure it's still good. You did mentioned you charged it and you measure 14.06V. But that doesn't mean much if you measured that right after you disconnected the charger or while the charger is on. You must make sure you have a good working battery first, otherwise all tests and troubleshooting work will be for nothing.

Back to the issue: headlights drawing that much current is usually sign of bad connection creating resistance which in turn require the system to draw more "juice" and drain your battery much faster than normal. As mentioned before: yellow gang connector under the left ram air duct: yellow/white wire and black/red wire if you're in Europe (My guess is that you're outside of the US with a TL with headlight switch on/off).
Keep in mind that even if you went with the headlight mod your current OEM headlight wiring system will still need to be in operating status as your headlight mod still uses it; hence you MUST fix this.

Here, you can see the yellow/white being bypassed outside of the yellow gang because the inside was burnt up and can't hold a terminal anymore.

Once that fixed, yes: check on your charging mod to make sure you are still charging at approx 14V @ 5000RPM. If the voltage drops while the RPM's go up, your regulator is "getting tired." If the charging system show anything less than 13V, you need to troubleshoot the system.

It would also be worth looking at your Starter Relay connector:


A few others to look into are:
headlight bulb connector:


Stator connector:


R/R connector:


Main Ground harness connector:



It is well worth to go MOSFET. All my bikes have all the headlight mod and charging mod in one version or another.
Charging mod with MOSFET


Charging mod with OEM r/r


Good luck this weekend.
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snowblind
Just going back and re-reading the original post - 90V out of the generator means its working well enough to charge the battery. Don't think there's any need to start ripping that out just yet.
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Six5
Methtical said:
.... I'll have them check my Charger mod as well as implement the Headlight relay mod, "+" mod and grounding mod to give me the best possible chance of getting juice back to the battery and the most power when trying to start it up - ......
Click to expand...
The "grounding mod" you want to do involves removing the connector and replacing the wire (shown in the photo from Brainless below) with a larger gage and a clean connection to the engine case. That is the bulk of the TL's grounding problem - unless there are individual failed crimps inside the loom, but those are rare.


The "grounding mod" described in the Frequent Mods forum is not worthwhile, IMO.



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Six5
Quite a comprehensive post there Brainless. Nice job. :thumbup

But you didn't leave anything for the rest of to talk about. :banghead :laugh


So, I found something to critique. Please don't be put off by it. :idea



Brainless said:
....
This tells me there's definitely something wrong with the headlight system.
.....

Back to the issue: headlights drawing that much current is usually sign of bad connection creating resistance which in turn require the system to draw more "juice" and drain your battery much faster than normal. As mentioned before: yellow gang connector under the left ram air duct: yellow/white wire and black/red wire if you're in Europe (My guess is that you're outside of the US with a TL with headlight switch on/off).
Keep in mind that even if you went with the headlight mod your current OEM headlight wiring system will still need to be in operating status as your headlight mod still uses it; hence you MUST fix this.

....
....
.
Click to expand...

The 1.0 volt change in battery voltage with the headlights switched on/off is rather typical in my experience. The dual low beams draw about 9 amps of steady current. That's a sizable load for that battery, so the voltage drop is not too surprising. However, any resistance in the circuit, due to bad terminals, or wires, or whatever, will not cause the lights to draw more current. In fact, any added resistance will reduce the current in the circuit, and thus lighten the load on the battery. Of course those resistive sections will heat up, but the power consumption from the battery won't increase because of it. However, the lights will be dimmer because they are not getting the full voltage of the battery.

Otherwise you covered all the bases. :)


As Snowblind noted, the test numbers from the stator look good. I doubt that is the problem.

The regulator, as you noted, could be tired. I have read where some lose their ability to regulate as they heat up. The output current may drop off.

There is also the possibility that the fuse holder used in the Charging Mod is faulty. That has happened more than once. It happened to me personally. The fuse holder heats up, or becomes resistive due to poor internal connections, and prevents the charging current from getting to the battery. So then, as the ride continues the battery is only being exhausted and not recharged.
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Brainless
Six5 said:
Quite a comprehensive post there Brainless. Nice job. :thumbup

But you didn't leave anything for the rest of to talk about. :banghead :laugh


So, I found something to critique. Please don't be put off by it. :idea






[snip]
Click to expand...
Thank you, master, for correcting my recollection of my 9th grade physics class (which, might I add, didn't take in this couple decades). :hail

Six5 said:
There is also the possibility that the fuse holder used in the Charging Mod is faulty. That has happened more than once. It happened to me personally. The fuse holder heats up, or becomes resistive due to poor internal connections, and prevents the charging current from getting to the battery. So then, as the ride continues the battery is only being exhausted and not recharged.
Click to expand...
I can vouch for that. I can also vouch for a faulty fuse. And no: the fuse never blew.
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M
4
Thanks for all the replies.

BUT as you mentioned you just bought the bike, I would also highly suggest you bring the battery to a shop that can load test it and make sure it's still good. You did mentioned you charged it and you measure 14.06V. But that doesn't mean much if you measured that right after you disconnected the charger or while the charger is on. You must make sure you have a good working battery first, otherwise all tests and troubleshooting work will be for nothing.
Click to expand...
I’d replaced the original battery with a brand new one after this occurred the first time as I just assumed that the battery was knackered. So the new one is a Motobatt - not sure if you are familiar with the brand in the US but it’s the goto battery for high cranking amps and winter usage. I did measure about 10 mins after taking off the charger to act as a baseline for all the other measurements I wanted to do, but sadly didn’t get very far with that!

Back to the issue: headlights drawing that much current is usually sign of bad connection creating resistance which in turn require the system to draw more "juice" and drain your battery much faster than normal. As mentioned before: yellow gang connector under the left ram air duct: yellow/white wire and black/red wire if you're in Europe (My guess is that you're outside of the US with a TL with headlight switch on/off).
Keep in mind that even if you went with the headlight mod your current OEM headlight wiring system will still need to be in operating status as your headlight mod still uses it; hence you MUST fix this.
Click to expand...
Ok so I had a little time last night to take left hand fairing off and inspect the connections, took some photos, everything looks ok to me, but I’m an untrained eye, so:












I also checked the headlight connectors and they looked fine as well – nothing obvious anyway.

Now here is where it gets interesting.

After checking all these connections and cables, I wanted to test the charging mod was rigged up properly. So I measure across the battery with ignition off, get something like 13.3v. I had to jump start it again to get the engine idling. However with it idling, I measured across the battery again, and lo and behold I’m getting 14.3v IIRC, I rev up to 5k rpm and its 14.5v – this is now suggesting the charging mod is working.

After speaking with a friend who’s more knowledgable about bikes overall, we came to the conclusion that either
a) the reg/rec is faulty and is working intermittently but is on its way to a permanent death,
b) when checking the connections/wiring, I inadvertently cleaned a connection, reconnected some broken circuit…..just did SOMETHING that now seems to be giving me the expected voltages that the charging mod provides.

With headlights on voltage still did not fall below 14v.

I will certainly look into buying a MOSFET regulated reg/rec after xmas is over with – at it stands I don’t have the funds what with spending a lot of money to buy the bike in the first place and it being this time of year. So if the charging mod remains functional for the mean time to allow me to continue to use the bike regularly then that will at least be something.

So now what I need to do is make sure it stays giving me 14v and use the bike to see if I still have trouble starting it after the journey to work or wherever, which I will do tomorrow. If the 14v disappears I will reinspect/slightly move the wiring and see if it comes back in an effort to zero in on the problem area.

I’ve also ordered the Relays for the headlight mod and the Plus mod. I am in no way well versed in doing any of this sort of stuff, so I will probably start a new thread asking for help when the time comes in an “explain like I’m five” fashion.
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Six5
There are signs of over heating in the starter relay connector (the loom side). This is part of the problem.

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M
Is that caused by the bad wiring and rectified by the charging mod? How easy is it to replace that connector?
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snowblind
I've had experience of a reg/rec unit partially/intermittently failing. It was a bugger to trace the fault since most of the time it checked out fine. Periodically it would trip out and cease to perform any useful function.
Replaced it and everything has been good since.

And just cos I always drone on about these things can I recommend replacing your lead/acid motobatt with a lithium/iron option instead? Smaller, lighter and much higher current delivery. Drawbacks are that they are expensive and can be temperamental in cold (<5C) conditions but other than that a big improvement all over. I'm using a Shorai item in my TLR and I'm happy to endorse them. Easiest way to knock 2kg off the weight of the bike apart from going on a diet myself. :laugh
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rxf610
Take me as a novice, I am hopefully learning the ways of Six5, but I think he will maybe say it is in the lack luster wiring in the starter relay circuitry. Like you say you are jumping the bike to get it going, but a battery with full amperage and 14V with a clean path to the starter should fire the bike up no problems. I say inspect all hot and ground through the starting system. Maybe measure continuity between relay to batt and relay to starter. Start with that melted line... I have my bike apart, so I am tidying up electrical as best I can.

I just did the Six5 approved ground mod. :devious


Methtical said:
Is that caused by the bad wiring and rectified by the charging mod? How easy is it to replace that connector?
Click to expand...
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Six5
Methtical said:
Is that caused by the bad wiring and rectified by the charging mod? How easy is it to replace that connector?
Click to expand...
It is caused by poor design - the under-rated terminals and wires in that circuit. The Charging Mod in conjunction with the Headlight Relay Mod greatly relieves the electrical load on the starter relay terminals, which makes them much more reliable.

The easiest way to replace that connector is to order one from Brainless. He has set up 'shop' of sorts, and builds these starter relay connectors with pig tails. It's a great service to TL owners around the world. :) It can easily be spliced into your loom - either by soldering the connections, or by using good reliable crimp splices.



rxf610 said:
Take me as a novice, I am hopefully learning the ways of Six5, but I think he will maybe say it is in the lack luster wiring in the starter relay circuitry.

... a battery with full amperage and 14V with a clean path to the starter should fire the bike up no problems. I say inspect all hot and ground through the starting system. Maybe measure continuity between relay to batt and relay to starter.... .....
Click to expand...
THE FORCE IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE! Well done, young Padawan! :lol:lol


If the engine cranks over strongly, the starting circuit is likely OK.

As for the charging issue, if the OEM charging circuit is still employed, the charging current actually passes through those starter relay terminals. Therefore, if they are less than perfect (intermittent) the charging current can be interrupted.

If the Charging Mod has been done without ALSO installing the Headlight Relay Mod, then, as D'Ecosse shows in his thread in the Frequent Mods forum, the headlight current gets rerouted THROUGH those small starter relay terminal pins and actually makes the heating problem worse.

Once those two mods are installed and the SR connector is fixed, you should see a marked improvement with consistent readings and reliability. If it still fails to charge afterwards, then you can confidently pursue the R/R.



rxf610 said:
I just did the Six5 approved ground mod. :devious
Click to expand...
rxr610, what exactly are you showing in the photo? A new crimped ground terminal next to the old one? :O
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rxf610
Six5 said:
rxr610, what exactly are you showing in the photo? A new crimped ground terminal next to the old one? :O
Click to expand...
Six5,

I put some notes on the photo. Sorry, my main point was to show the tiny tiny ground with the measly connector. Basically what you suggested to tidy up the unneeded spade connector / beef up the ground gauge. That crimped larger gauge ring terminal will probably be combined and heatshrinked with some other common ground/s, namely the male spade connection left vacated by that terrible connector I am removing.

I peeled open the crimped end, then razor bladed the old cheapo wire at the terminal ending exposing that new clamp, then I feed some heavy copper and was even able to put the original waterproof jacket around the ground. I terminated it with a 10-12 ring terminal (definitely prematurely :lol ), but will probably add in to the ring the stripped male end of the plug for the ground.

Hopefully further illustrating the small gauge wires and how quickly resistance could build up in a tiny connector like the old one shown.
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M
*sighs*

Right I charged my battery again overnight and installed it with the intent to see if the charging mod was still functioning as expected and see how well it performed after being driven.

Was 14.23v with ignition off, turn ignition on, headlights off, try to start but it would not fire, just keeps trying to go but not enough power. Read battery afterwards and its dropped to 13.3v. Kept monitoring with ignition on, headlights off and the volts steadily decrease - is this just the dash lights drawing current?

So the bike won't start with a freshly charged battery, I have to jump it, after which I get 14.2v at idle without headlights, but if I put the headlights on this drops to 13.6v - I have to rev to at least 5k before its above 14v again.

If the bike won't start with a freshly charged battery then does that not rule out the Reg/Rec since thats not being engaged at this point?

I'm guessing this then points towards that connector on the starter relay perhaps not letting full power flow through, in conjunction with the headlight relay mod not being in place also diverting power from the starting circuit.

I will PM Brainless about a new connector, however with being in the US, with it being the Christmas season with its associated increase in mail, I wouldn't expect to see it arrive this side of 2013. I did read elsewhere about making a jumper for the pin in question - thinking I might do this as a temporary solution just so I can be sure that I've isolated the problem areas so that when the replacement connector does arrive I'll not have to worry about further fault finding.

Shares in codeine have rocketed with the headache this is giving me!
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snowblind
To me this says the battery is hosed. 14V idling says the charging system is working. If the voltage falls steadily with nothing other than the dash lights on then you've either got a serious short somewhere or as I say, the battery is not holding a charge. A short that bad would probably make its presence pretty obvious so if nothing smells toasted we're back to the battery.

I had a look at motobatt's web site. From the blurb it looks like the construction of their batteries is well thought out. However, even with the best QA in the world there will always be duds.

If you can hook up a spare of some description see if the behaviour changes.
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