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Thread: ECM not pulling Yellow/Blue wire low to near zero volts

  1. #11
    AMA Pit Boss Six5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxf610 View Post
    .....
    Unfortunately the only "fix" is a new ECU. I was going to make a "fix" but it just was too cost prohibitive and complicated.
    rxf610, I thought you had that cooking on the back burner.

    Why is it so costly? The hardware? Or time required to engineer it?
    January 2012 TLOTM & BBOTM


  2. #12
    GP Champ rxf610's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    rxf610, I thought you had that cooking on the back burner.

    Why is it so costly? The hardware? Or time required to engineer it?
    OH, I love cooking....

    Well, it's "both"... and I offer my engineering skills free to the forum (and especially you!) ALWAYS.

    So here is the problem:

    At a minimum, I need to monitor / splice into:
    Hot 12 (to leave Arduino hot, so it doesn't require dead time... then program it to sleep on key off, blah blah blah )
    Ign 12 (to trigger Arduino to start "start" sequence )
    FP Yel/Blue
    TOS
    Switch Kill Line (to trigger kill signal)
    Start button line ( to turn pump on during crank)
    And prob more!

    It is basically asking the basic user to solder into like 10 wires... Just not worth it...

    If you think different. Like I said, free engineering time. Always and forever for you!
    ... listen to Six5 ...

  3. #13
    Baby Twin apex69's Avatar
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    Hi All …

    I know it’s been a while … life happens and just last night was reading up so I could analyze this morning.

    Back on post 6 of mine I mentioned 3 second prime became intermittent. Should have clarified that when three 3 second prime was not working, not working meant, that the pump would work, come on and constantly run … like grounding the yellow/blue wire to chassis. The other observation … during this intermittent period when it functioned with the 3 second prime, you always heard the relay click . When it was power on, the pump came on and stayed on, no prime.

    The pump stopped coming on all together.

    I walked through Six5’s post from 4/1 for the self-diagnosis. Then followed CrashB’s tutorial through each sequence of the loom but did not find a break. Then Six5’s analysis on 4/2 of my later posts. I followed rxf610’s simple jumper instruction and it functioned just as he stated. With a jump from yellow/blue to ground, turn the key on, the pump comes on (no 3 second prime). And while the key is on (power on) I can turn off the pump with the kill switch.

    Is this likely the result of inevitability? An ECM drive transistor gone bad? Trying to think through the period of time, oh let’s say about 4 months, where the pump would come on and just stay on. I rode it 5 or 6 times like that. Would that be the symptom of that failure mode starting to occur? Wondering if any others that had an issue experienced at first, no 3 second prime with the pump staying on then later on complete failure? The transistor in the ECM would fail because of shorting, inrush current, solider joint on circuit board?

    What do we know about a drive transistor in the ECM? Can the ECM be opened? Is that transistor board mounted and potted?

    Happy Mother’s Day to all those Mothers with people on here helping me out!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ECM not pulling Yellow/Blue wire low to near zero volts-jumper.jpg  

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  5. #14
    AMA Pit Boss Six5's Avatar
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    I don't really have any answers for you apex. Just a couple observations.

    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    ......
    With a jump from yellow/blue to ground, turn the key on, the pump comes on (no 3 second prime). And while the key is on (power on) I can turn off the pump with the kill switch.


    In this configuration, the kill switch turns off the pump because it cuts power to the Orange/Wht wire (ignition & fuel supply) which is the "positive" side of the coil in the FP relay.


    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post

    Is this likely the result of inevitability? An ECM drive transistor gone bad? Trying to think through the period of time, oh let’s say about 4 months, where the pump would come on and just stay on. I rode it 5 or 6 times like that. Would that be the symptom of that failure mode starting to occur? .....
    The transistor in the ECM would fail because of shorting, inrush current, solider joint on circuit board?


    Difficult to say if those conditions are typical of the failure mode.
    I have never experienced a failure personally. I've only seen them after the FP output has failed.

    My guess is that the component itself has failed, rather than merely a bad solder joint, but again, it is just a guess. From my experience with Japanese products, they are pretty careful about the quality of their solder connections.


    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post

    What do we know about a drive transistor in the ECM? Can the ECM be opened? Is that transistor board mounted and potted?
    ....!
    I'm sure the transistor is board mounted. However, where it is on the board and how difficult is it to get to - remains unknown.


    The photo below is copied from the Stock ECU reprogrammable? thread.

    https://www.tlzone.net/forums/perform...grammable.html

    The entire board is clearly encased in some sort of potting material. It is not easy to get to, but some have successfully gained access to the eprom and other components.

    January 2012 TLOTM & BBOTM


  6. #15
    Baby Twin apex69's Avatar
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    I was hoping you guys would have said I missed something. I am going to go back through the wiring harness again. Perhaps I missed something. That brought me to this link ... https://www.tlzone.net/forums/suzuki-...ump-prime.html

    Was a great read till the very end wondering about the gray wire in the large front wiring block hoping for pictures. I will keep digging with mine.

  7. #16
    Baby Twin apex69's Avatar
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    WinkFinal Thoughts

    Still working on this issue. I've gone through and read many of the posts that should have kept me from posting a single thread on this. Every voltage nook and cranny, and troubleshooting fault analysis is on this forum prior to my post LOL.

    Between Six5, CrashB, The Ring-In, among a few others including, rxf610, it's all here. It's just sifting through all the threads and using the proper search terms. However what I found interesting is people actually did find solutions and they varied from issue to issue.

    In reading some of those threads, I began to compile what the symptoms were, pairing them with their solutions. Going back to frx610's post in this thread I followed this:

    Ground the Yellow/Blue wire to the sub-frame. The pump should now RUN and ALWAYS RUN with key on kill in run position... (a la... no 3 second prime, just go go go). The bike SHOULD start and run (and keep that c41 code, but run nonetheless). Unfortunately the only "fix" is a new ECU. I was going to make a "fix" but it just was too cost prohibitive and complicated.


    So that worked as I've mentioned, grounding the yellow/blue to chassis. With the kill switch in the off position, I turn the key on, then when I turn the kill switch to run ... the relay clicks and the pump runs and just keeps running. I can turn the pump on and off with the kill switch. It starts and runs fine. All my connections are spotless. No wear through anywhere on any of the looms. Unplug the TOS when running, the bike will shut off in about 5 seconds, but will not work when connected with bike running and rotate to 60° as designed.

    So as frx610 states, the only "fix" is an ECU. I did read a couple of threads where replacing the ECU did not resolve the issue however, they had not gone through everything as thoroughly as they should have and eventually found the problem not ECU related. Would this still be the case?

    I am going to temporarily add a normally closed 45 degree tilt switch in-between the yellow/blue wire from the back of the relay plug, and chassis ground. If the bike goes over it will disrupt the ground circuit shutting off the pump. Not desirable but I am not sure I'm ready to purchase an ECU yet. As Six5 mentioned in another thread to someone who had purchased an ECU from eBay, the transistor that drives the voltage down could be shot in that ECU even though it came out of a good running bike. No history of that unit.

    Any thoughts appreciated and thank you for all the detailed posts throughout this forum.

    Apex

  8. #17
    AMA Pit Boss Six5's Avatar
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    I appreciate your thoroughness and compilations Apex. Maybe they will help someone down the road.


    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    Still working on this issue. ......
    ... Unplug the TOS when running, the bike will shut off in about 5 seconds, but will not work when connected with bike running and rotate to 60° as designed.
    I'm not surprised on this point. Mine behaved the same way. A micro-thin oxidation layer accumulates on the terminals inside the TOS, and the weight of the shorting ring is not always enough to break through to make contact.


    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    So as rfx610 states, the only "fix" is an ECU. I did read a couple of threads where replacing the ECU did not resolve the issue however, they had not gone through everything as thoroughly as they should have and eventually found the problem not ECU related. Would this still be the case?
    I doubt it. Without reading through this thread again, I think you have covered all the bases.

    What were the issues the others overlooked? And haven't you checked them already?


    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    I am going to temporarily add a normally closed 45 degree tilt switch in-between the yellow/blue wire from the back of the relay plug, and chassis ground. If the bike goes over it will disrupt the ground circuit shutting off the pump. ....
    I think that's a good idea.

    Do you have a switch in mind already? Can you post a link? Will it endure normal riding vibrations?
    January 2012 TLOTM & BBOTM


  9. #18
    Baby Twin apex69's Avatar
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    More Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    I appreciate your thoroughness and compilations Apex. Maybe they will help someone down the road.
    Exactly ... I am surprised at how many have similar issues that are related to this in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    I'm not surprised on this point. Mine behaved the same way. A micro-thin oxidation layer accumulates on the terminals inside the TOS, and the weight of the shorting ring is not always enough to break through to make contact.
    Not mentioned, I disassembled the TOS ... micro-thin you say? I took a look at the contacts with a rather nice magnifying glass and really did not see anything than the very slightest of tarnish like when copper starts to loose its luster. Took a very fine small wire brush and cleaned them. No change


    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    I doubt it. Without reading through this thread again, I think you have covered all the bases.
    Agreed ... still wondering if what rfx610 stated would hold true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    What were the issues the others overlooked? And haven't you checked them already?
    Checked them. Just two of the other guys found the following ... one of them found a brown wire a few inches from the blade fuse box on the right side at the air duct. He stripped back the loom and found a hot spot on the wire that discolored the sheathing and embrittled the copper wire. He replaced that section and was fixed. Another was a corroded terminal at the large white junction on the left side front at the faring. He replaced that and all was good. One of the reasons that if grounding the yellow/blue wire creates a fuel pump relay click, the bike runs and all the voltages check then is it what rfx610 said.



    Quote Originally Posted by Six5 View Post
    I think that's a good idea.
    Do you have a switch in mind already? Can you post a link? Will it endure normal riding vibrations?
    I have several in mind, none in possession and no part numbers yet. Some of the manufacturer data would suggest that their durability testing would yield good results. Honestly, I would like to test these. The normal riding vibrations can be isolated with a low durometer silicone rubber pad or sleeve. The "noise" that is the vibration, coming from normal riding could create a nuance condition triggering short intermittent on/offs, on/offs. This too can be remedied by the tilt switch design that is, two inner bearings that server to cancel out that input frequency (harmonic) or vibration. A mercury tilt switch is a better option against vibration. Not my first choice but an option if it has the proper construction. Back at work tomorrow will allow me to dig into it more and hopefully can post up some info. I'm surprised that rfx610 hadn't already looked into this since he likes to cook.

  10. #19
    Baby Twin apex69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    Not mentioned, I disassembled the TOS ... micro-thin you say? I took a look at the contacts with a rather nice magnifying glass and really did not see anything than the very slightest of tarnish like when copper starts to loose its luster. Took a very fine small wire brush and cleaned them. No change
    Yes initially no change, then ..... this time, with the bike running, yellow/blue wire from back of relay plug grounded to chassis as before, with the cover off of the TOS, I can consistently shut the bike down with the TOS only IF ... I hold the ring up against the contacts. Otherwise rotating the the TOS and letting it sit there no matter which side will not shut the bike off. I did 5 or 6 times after resetting the TOS, letting it sit then after a minute with the ring sitting on the contacts then I simply applied a little pressure and the bike shuts off.

    As I understood the TOS should not work with the yellow/blue grounded. I do get the expected TOS error code c23. A matter of resistance but did not measure any value outside the scope of shop manual values. I am baffled

  11. #20
    AMA Pit Boss Six5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    Yes initially no change, then ..... this time, with the bike running, yellow/blue wire from back of relay plug grounded to chassis as before, with the cover off of the TOS, I can consistently shut the bike down with the TOS only IF ... I hold the ring up against the contacts. Otherwise rotating the the TOS and letting it sit there no matter which side will not shut the bike off. I did 5 or 6 times after resetting the TOS, letting it sit then after a minute with the ring sitting on the contacts then I simply applied a little pressure and the bike shuts off.
    Yep, this is identical to the conditions I observed when I was testing the TOS on my TLS.

    That's why I said "micro-thin." It is not a layer you can see, but it is enough to prevent electrical conduction with only the weight of the brass ring in the TOS. Therefore, it is a gamble if the TOS will really work when you need it to.



    Quote Originally Posted by apex69 View Post
    As I understood the TOS should not work with the yellow/blue grounded. I do get the expected TOS error code c23. A matter of resistance but did not measure any value outside the scope of shop manual values. I am baffled
    While I couldn't find where it is stated in the manual, I suspect the ECM is reading the TOS signal (when you force a connection with the ring) and it attempts to shut down, not only the fuel delivery system, but also the control pulses sent to the injectors and the ignition coils, thereby stopping the engine.

    So then, in your case, even though the pump remains on, and the fuel rail is pressurized, the engine stops because the ECM cuts ignition and injector activity. That's my guess.

    January 2012 TLOTM & BBOTM


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