Need some help from those familiar with GSXR clock swaps
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  1. #1
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    Need some help from those familiar with GSXR clock swaps

    The TL and my current bike could hardly be more different from one another, but I can remember back in the days of my TLS that it was a popular thing to set up GSXR speedometers. I thought it worth putting my woes to you guys and see if anyone has encountered this issues...and defeated them.

    To start, I'm running an '05 GSXR 600 speedometer.

    First issue, and most annoying, is an erratic tach. At low RPM and slow revving it reads smooth and sweeps nicely. At high rpm (above 6k-ish) it jumps and jerks. My bike has a tach feed for the stock clock...from this it still jerks a bit and reads twice the actual RPM. I've also tried the positive terminal of the #1 coil and the same wire but at the igniter which yielded the same results each and is my current condition. Last I tried wrapping wire around the high tension lead and go not signal at all.

    I'm certain this is a matter of a "dirty" signal, but I haven't faintest how to clean it up.

    Second, and easiest to sort out of the lot I'm sure (I haven't looked it up at all yet)...damn fuel light is lit all the time. Anyone know off the top of their head know at what ohm the low fuel light triggers? If nothing else I'll just ground it and watch my miles.

    Third, last, least consequential, and probably the most difficult to sort out...I'm trying to disable the "CHECK" warning on the dash and possibly use it to signify a different fault. Anyone had any luck disabling the check message on the GSXR clocks? Or is the TL lucky enough to be able to communicate with it normally?

    Any help would be appreciated!
    Duncan

  2. #2
    Evil Twin JoE.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post

    To start, I'm running an '05 GSXR 600 speedometer.

    First issue, and most annoying, is an erratic tach. At low RPM and slow revving it reads smooth and sweeps nicely. At high rpm (above 6k-ish) it jumps and jerks. My bike has a tach feed for the stock clock...from this it still jerks a bit and reads twice the actual RPM. I've also tried the positive terminal of the #1 coil and the same wire but at the igniter which yielded the same results each and is my current condition. Last I tried wrapping wire around the high tension lead and go not signal at all.

    I'm certain this is a matter of a "dirty" signal, but I haven't faintest how to clean it up.
    The GSXR gauge clusters expect a pretty clean square wave as the input for the speed signal as well as for the tacho signal. However, the tacho signal circuit was change somehow starting with 1000/K3 resp. 600/K5. I found that while earlier GSXR clocks worked fine on the TL, the latter ones needed an additional ~10Kohm resistor from the tacho signal to GND. Maybe this is worth a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Second, and easiest to sort out of the lot I'm sure (I haven't looked it up at all yet)...damn fuel light is lit all the time. Anyone know off the top of their head know at what ohm the low fuel light triggers? If nothing else I'll just ground it and watch my miles.
    The GSXR and TL fuel circuit is pretty special. While most modern bikes have a float type fuel sensor, the GSXR and TL have 1 or 2 fixed sensors (thermostat). I guess it would require some sort of converter to get the GSXR fuel light working correctly. But what exactly is required depends on your current bike of course. I did something similar to make the 1000/K5 gauge cluster work on the TL fuel sensors.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Third, last, least consequential, and probably the most difficult to sort out...I'm trying to disable the "CHECK" warning on the dash and possibly use it to signify a different fault. Anyone had any luck disabling the check message on the GSXR clocks?
    Yes, has been done many times. The only way to get rid of the CHEC message is to use an Arduino (or Teensy or...) to simulate the data protocol that the gauge cluster expects to get from the ECM. One just needs to send 8 bytes with certain content every ~400 ms. That will satisfy the gauge cluster. However, then the display will show '----' because it wants to show some temperature data. Of course it would be possible to either show some arbitrary numbers, or may be convert some real temp data into proper hex values and show that on the display. This is something I'm going to do within the next few days for a member who wants to have the K1 gauge cluster on his '97 600 SRAD (carbs). I need to find out what temp sensor resistance corresponds to what temperature. Then I can provide the appropriate hex data.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Or is the TL lucky enough to be able to communicate with it normally?
    No, the TL is not lucky enough. There is also the Arduino required. While the TL's data protocol is 5 bytes in length, the GSXR gauge cluster expects 8 bytes.

    Upper 2 lines show the TL data, lower 2 lines show the (converted) GSXR data:



    JoE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoE. View Post
    The GSXR gauge clusters expect a pretty clean square wave as the input for the speed signal as well as for the tacho signal. However, the tacho signal circuit was change somehow starting with 1000/K3 resp. 600/K5. I found that while earlier GSXR clocks worked fine on the TL, the latter ones needed an additional ~10Kohm resistor from the tacho signal to GND. Maybe this is worth a try.
    I'll try it. To be sure I understand, though, you're talking about this?



    The GSXR and TL fuel circuit is pretty special. While most modern bikes have a float type fuel sensor, the GSXR and TL have 1 or 2 fixed sensors (thermostat). I guess it would require some sort of converter to get the GSXR fuel light working correctly. But what exactly is required depends on your current bike of course. I did something similar to make the 1000/K5 gauge cluster work on the TL fuel sensors.
    Yeah I was looking at the diagrams last night...I can make it work, but I don't want to. I'll either disable it or live with the light. I'm running this clock on a Kawasaki ZR7 and it's a generic potentiometer type sensor.

    Yes, has been done many times. The only way to get rid of the CHEC message is to use an Arduino (or Teensy or...) to simulate the data protocol that the gauge cluster expects to get from the ECM. One just needs to send 8 bytes with certain content every ~400 ms. That will satisfy the gauge cluster. However, then the display will show '----' because it wants to show some temperature data. Of course it would be possible to either show some arbitrary numbers, or may be convert some real temp data into proper hex values and show that on the display. This is something I'm going to do within the next few days for a member who wants to have the K1 gauge cluster on his '97 600 SRAD (carbs). I need to find out what temp sensor resistance corresponds to what temperature. Then I can provide the appropriate hex data.

    No, the TL is not lucky enough. There is also the Arduino required. While the TL's data protocol is 5 bytes in length, the GSXR gauge cluster expects 8 bytes.

    JoE.
    Lord yes if you get that sorted out please do post about it. Do you have a thread going somewhere about it that I can subscribe to? My end goal, if I can sort it out, is to at least make the CHEC go away and use the temp to show oil temperature (oil cooled bike).
    Duncan

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  5. #4
    Evil Twin JoE.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    I'll try it. To be sure I understand, though, you're talking about this?
    Well, not really. I'd try to use the signal that the ECM/IC igniter sends to the tacho (not the one from the spark plugs). They usually output some sort of a well shaped square wave. Try to use the resistor there. Put it as close to the gauge cluster as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Yeah I was looking at the diagrams last night...I can make it work, but I don't want to. I'll either disable it or live with the light. I'm running this clock on a Kawasaki ZR7 and it's a generic potentiometer type sensor.
    One could use the Arduino to read that sensor and switch the fuel light at a certain (low) reading. That's what I do for my K5:




    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Lord yes if you get that sorted out please do post about it.
    Still waiting for the SRAD speedo to do the tests. However, I don't think that those data would help you. I'm sure the SRAD temp sensor and the ZX7-R temp (oil) sensors are different. So the required data table would be different too. The service manual usually does not help because they in most cases have just 2 or 3 test values, and the temp sensors do not have a linear resistance curve. Since it don't have a ZX7R (or some of it's sensors), I can not tell you what resistance (or voltage at the voltage divider) corresponds to what temperature. If you could/would find out yourself, I could help you with the Arduino program and the temp data table. The following is the temp table I used for the TLS Nokia data display:


    /************************************************** **************
    * Temperature data table CENTIGRADE
    *
    * The ECM sends the temp data as HEX value ranging from
    * 0x93 (20°C/68°F) down to 0x00 (>140°C/>284°F). We need to
    * map those HEX values to DEC temp values.
    *
    ************************************************** **************/

    const unsigned char tempTable[] PROGMEM =
    {
    140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 140, 138, 134, 130,
    126, 122, 119, 116, 114, 111, 109, 107, 105, 103, 101, 99, 97,
    96, 94, 93, 91, 90, 88, 87, 86, 85, 83, 82, 81, 80,
    79, 78, 77, 76, 75, 74, 73, 72, 71, 70, 70, 69, 68,
    67, 67, 66, 65, 64, 63, 63, 62, 61, 61, 60, 59, 59,
    58, 57, 57, 56, 56, 55, 54, 54, 53, 53, 52, 51, 51,
    50, 50, 49, 49, 48, 48, 47, 47, 46, 46, 45, 45, 44,
    44, 43, 43, 42, 42, 41, 41, 40, 40, 39, 39, 38, 38,
    38, 37, 37, 36, 36, 35, 35, 35, 34, 34, 33, 33, 32,
    32, 32, 31, 31, 30, 30, 29, 29, 29, 28, 28, 27, 27,
    27, 26, 26, 26, 25, 25, 25, 24, 24, 23, 23, 23, 22,
    22, 21, 21, 21, 20, 20
    };



    There's also a table for Fahrenheit.


    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    Do you have a thread going somewhere about it that I can subscribe to?
    Not for this specific problem. I just have 2 requests from non-TLP/TLZ SRAD owners to help them. There are some 'How-do-I-get-my-GSXR-gauge-cluster-working-on-my-TL' threads on TLZ and TLP though that deal with the Arduino data converter and how to adjust the odo by altering the EEPROM content.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenzie71 View Post
    My end goal, if I can sort it out, is to at least make the CHEC go away and use the temp to show oil temperature (oil cooled bike).
    I also could provide the rest of the data message to get rid of the CHEC message.

  6. #5
    Evil Twin JoE.'s Avatar
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    Forgot one point about the fuel light. Since the 600/K5 gauge cluster has internal FLLR, the fuel light should not lit if no wire is connected to the fuel pin (B/Lg), i.e. fuel circuit is open. That holds the fuel circuit's input at +12V level (via the 70ohm FLLR) and the LED does not get triggered. The fuel LED should come on only if the fuel pin (B/Lg) is pulled to <~6V (depends on the actual BAT voltage).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoE. View Post
    Well, not really. I'd try to use the signal that the ECM/IC igniter sends to the tacho (not the one from the spark plugs). They usually output some sort of a well shaped square wave. Try to use the resistor there. Put it as close to the gauge cluster as possible.
    I'm going to try and focus on one issue at a time.

    I have tried the factory tach signal but it reads double the RPM and was just as jerky.

    Someone on Custom Fighters suggested running the 10kΩ resistor inline and I tried that...the result was the tach feed was much smoother below 7000rpm, but still pretty jerky above it.

    I'm still trying to make sure you meant to run the resistor to ground?

    I had one other suggestion to run the resistor to a 1µf capacitor and then to ground.
    Duncan

  8. #7
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    Jo, your knowledge on the gauge cluster modifications is down right scary!!
    130.8bhp and 77.2 ft.lbs. - Carbon Air Tubes - Race Airbox - Hyper Pro Sterring Damper - Hyper Pro rear Damper - VooDoo RearSets - OZ wheels - Yoshi Exhaust - Van top Triple - Driven Clip-ons - HID Projector Headlight - Custom Radiator Protector - Samco Coolant Hoses - Fan Switch Mod - TRE - DB Smoked Screan - Hell Brake & Clutch Lines - Tail Tidy - Hugger - LED Rear Cluster - Carbon Frame Covers - Black Shorty Levers - K9 Busa Radial Forks - GSXR1000 M/C - 1/5th Throtle Insert - GSXR1000 k9 front fender - Van Sprocket Cover

  9. #8
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    It's great to actually be getting some information. I tried gixxer.com first and that conversation lead to me being permanently banned.

    I remember the days with forums were full of JoE's.
    Duncan

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    Was busy with that SRAD to GSXR/K1 temp gauge thingy. Works like a charm btw. So one could use something like that for your oil temp.

    Ok, I guess I have no idea what to do here. I don't know what the input signal looks like, what frequency, Vpp and stuff. Maybe there's just a complete mismatch. Maybe the input frequency is twice as much as the K5 expects? Or Vpp is to low/high?

    Besides the fact that all GSXR gauge clusters work fine on the TL, for my test setup I use a spare wave 5Vpp and 0 to 200Hz:



    So with an input frequency of 125Hz one should get similar numbers (varies a little bit depending on the model).

    The 10Kohm resistor... Starting with the 600/K4 1000/K5 Suzuki obviously changed something in the tacho circuit. Those gauge clusters do not work on the TL ECM without that additional resistor. Seems that the tacho circuit's input resistance is to high (may be open collector) and requires some load to work properly.

    JoE.

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    ...'spare wave' ?

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