+ mod

[Elreq]

isnt it like vaccum pessure. The more vaccum (negative) pessure you create the more volume can go through. and vise versa if you increase the pressure (positive) the more volume you move. but if you just increase the positive pressure it will back up and not flow as freely cause the - pressure is not at the same volume and again the same way the other way around if you increase the - pressure but dont increase the positive then you are just suck nothing. there for increasing the negative allows for a better smoother flow from anything that needs it. since anything that uses the elcticity ends at the battery and the -mod is off the battery, it then allow more + to be produced anywhere not just the coil. i am obviously not an electrician but thats what makes sense to me. plus you have acouple other mods tring to increase the positive side to other things on the bike. and that will need more grounding as well right.

[chucks_net]

sort of... more like water pressure


Think of each strand of wire as a little pipe for water flow. The more little pipes or if you have one big pipe the more water can flow over a period of time.

Think of the water pressure as "voltage" and the amount of water (determined by the size of the pipe) as Current or "Amperage". Then the amount of water over time is power or "wattage" measured in Kilowatt hours on the side of your house.

[133bhp]

in the vein of a discussion etc (albeit a long one) and even though I cant even remeber what the original question was? I'd have to say:

...I'd argue its actually YOU who keeps on misisng the point, and furthermore, its not like you've undertood my theory of operation to have/had come up with your own to replace it.

However, I'll be frank, that second diagram doesnt even make any sense to me? Not least, as you seem to be switching between conventional curent and electron curent at will! As your current is heading AWAY from the neagtive? but still going throgh the pos side of the coils?

But that aside, regards needing the batt termianal to spark? - you seem to forget, the ECU earth is isolated from the engine/frame, only being connected at the same point as the engine earth strap on to the batt neg. so is very much neded as without the strap, theres no way of spark [current] retruning to the battery. (you might wonder why the strap is even there othwerwise?)

but even then ,irrepsctive of that, why would the current go via every other connected load - when - it has DIRECT, path "of least resistance", STRAIGHT onto the battery neagtive via a great big earth strap?

But on the first diagram? - you state, "AFTER jumping the gap that the current has to come back to that point" ... actually, when the energy has diminished/spark has ceased - there "IS NO" current flow! The ionising spark itself completes the ciruit.

I feel all the information is out there already to understand, but again, the current flows through the secondary as theres 12v postive on one side at the tap, and about 30kv on the other end of the scrondary! with the postive side being on the plug.

So, you have in effect, 12v pos on the primary/secondary, 20/30kv positive on the sec coil oitput, all of which mean the current flows in one direction. spark copletes the circuit, current flows etc.



Overall, It seems to me when I see this being discussed, people are always forgeting:

a) there's a earth strap
b) all earths except the sparks, go via the loom
c) the coil is not connected to the core in any way (and why on earth, (no pun intented) would they?)
d) the transistors are normally closed, not open.
e) the primary and secondary are both connected
f) the secondary is not wound in the same direction as the primary
g) the postive side of the centre tap is postive, connected to
the "negative" side of the scondary and so on.
h) - there is no H, as I'm being called to have my dinner and am bored now !!


But overall Steve, am I to take this slow, grinding, turnaround to be a tacit recongnition that this is correct then? but I;ll be honest, I have to wonder after all this, if this is this about provng the neg mod or proving me wrong!

[133bhp]

note - regrds current, in fact electrons dont flow, thats just the analogy, they behave like ball beaings in a row for example, push one, the other end will move too. almost but not quite intsantaenoulsy. I assume at the speed of light (if rememebr my lecturer?)

while I'm at it - migt be of interst to know lightning goes from the ground to the clouds, not vice versa. (electron flow)

[chucks_net]

Well that electrical theory is somewhat correct.

I believe that sometimes lightning goes clouds to earth -although I'm not sure anyone has the ability to prove or disprove this

In AC current is sort of like ball bearings... the electrons are passed back and forth

but in DC there is a constant flow where electrons are actually transferred from a potential to a lack of potential



I'm not sure who is proving who wrong or what is wrong with any type of mod. Steve usually tries to help and has corrected me on many occaisions. I don't think he was trying to mess with you or disprove you

You need to have a deep understanding of impedance/ resonance/ capacitance to modify coils and actually improve spark/ performance. Then there is another aspect.... what type of spark produces the most effective combustion? High voltage/ low current, high voltage/ high current, and how much voltage and how much current?


Here is what will help you electrically: Maintain your electrical connections

If you feel you need to mod something you can add a bigger/ additional ground strap.

Solder the coils into the harness

replace your plug wires

gap your plugs to spec


I have the education and experience to tell you this without a dyno

[133bhp]

Ignition design is another topic, (of which I know zilch) . but this is about whether any merit in a neg mod?, to which I've been placed under scrutiny, to the tune of about four pages! a little unusual even for this forum. Interestingly, I'm not hearing anyone agree or disagree though?

another example: sheet lightning - can go between clouds too, depending of the potential difference between them. Not heard going from clouds to erath as asuume piotential will always be lowest at earth? but will findout some other time. but just an observation.

electrons move in between the "spaces" between atoms, losing and gaining them. foward or backwards, the process is the same. there is no "flow"

Anyway, what is your experience/education out of interest?

[Steve TLS]

Originally Posted by 133bhp

in the vein of a discussion etc (albeit a long one) and even though I cant even remeber what the original question was? I'd have to say:

...I'd argue its actually YOU who keeps on misisng the point, and furthermore, its not like you've undertood my theory of operation to have/had come up with your own to replace it. At the end of the day, it doesn't need the battery -ve terminal to operate, if there was a convention wound rotor alternator, you could lift the earth off the battery and the engine would keep running - not stop from lack of spark.

However, I'll be frank, that second diagram doesnt even make any sense to me? Not least, as you seem to be switching between conventional curent and electron curent at will! As your current is heading AWAY from the neagtive? but still going throgh the pos side of the coils? Then you're missing some basics current flows / circuitry (regardless of direction, electron flow, conventional flow, hole theory etc). The direction is not important the path is.

But that aside, regards needing the batt termianal to spark? - you seem to forget, the ECU earth is isolated from the engine/frame, only being connected at the same point as the engine earth strap on to the batt neg. so is very much neded as without the strap, theres no way of spark [current] retruning to the battery. (you might wonder why the strap is even there othwerwise?)I've forgotten nothing. It doesn't need the battery negative post. The loom earth is tied to the earth strap at the terminal, it doesn't need the battery. The earth strap is for the starter motor (and to tie the engine to the loom earth).

but even then ,irrepsctive of that, why would the current go via every other connected load - when - it has DIRECT, path "of least resistance", STRAIGHT onto the battery neagtive via a great big earth strap?It uses all paths available, not one, basic circuitry.

But on the first diagram? - you state, "AFTER jumping the gap that the current has to come back to that point" ... actually, when the energy has diminished/spark has ceased - there "IS NO" current flow! The ionising spark itself completes the ciruit.You're missing some basic circuitry understanding. The circuit is from one end of the secondary to the other. One end being the plug cap, the other the tie betweeen primary and secondary. When the spark is jumping there is current flow.

I feel all the information is out there already to understand, but again, the current flows through the secondary as theres 12v postive on one side at the tap, and about 30kv on the other end of the scrondary! with the postive side being on the plug.

So, you have in effect, 12v pos on the primary/secondary, 20/30kv positive on the sec coil oitput, all of which mean the current flows in one direction. spark copletes the circuit, current flows etc.Yes, from the start end of the secondary to the end end of the secondary.



Overall, It seems to me when I see this being discussed, people are always forgeting:

a) there's a earth strap That is tied to the loom earth
b) all earths except the sparks, go via the loom Baisc circuitry, the spark current / seondary finds anyway it can back to the +ve LV connection of the coil
c) the coil is not connected to the core in any way (and why on earth, (no pun intented) would they?)Because you can and it would work.
d) the transistors are normally closed, not open.Transistors are normally open. You need current on the base to make them close / turn on. They are closed via the ECU, then opened - when they open the voltage is induced into the secondary by the collaping field- at this point, because the transistor is off, there is no direct connection to earth for the -ve LV coil winding. Unless you meant normally closed by the ECU?
e) the primary and secondary are both connected Yes and the secondary current has to come back to this point - or leave this point depending what direction of flow you pick.
f) the secondary is not wound in the same direction as the primary It makes no difference to the operation, just the direction of flow - it still has to complete the same circuit.
g) the postive side of the centre tap is postive, connected to
the "negative" side of the scondary and so on.
h) - there is no H, as I'm being called to have my dinner and am bored now !!


But overall Steve, am I to take this slow, grinding, turnaround to be a tacit recongnition that this is correct then? but I;ll be honest, I have to wonder after all this, if this is this about provng the neg mod or proving me wrong! Trying to educate you not prove you wrong.

If you don't agree the secondary current has to go back to the point I marked in the 1st diagram, then the discussion is mute That's where it has to go. It will flow through all the other paths I mentioned whether it makes sense to you or not.

There'd be a lot of boiler burners out there that wouldn't fire if I couldn't get the ignition transformer circuitry / paths correct or understood how they worked. I wouldn't have been able to make a living dsigning control circuitry if I didn't understand how and what they did etc.

[chucks_net]

Originally Posted by 133bhp

Ignition design is another topic, (of which I know zilch) . but this is about whether any merit in a neg mod?, to which I've been placed under scrutiny, to the tune of about four pages! a little unusual even for this forum. Interestingly, I'm not hearing anyone agree or disagree though?

another example: sheet lightning - can go between clouds too, depending of the potential difference between them. Not heard going from clouds to erath as asuume piotential will always be lowest at earth? but will findout some other time. but just an observation.

electrons move in between the "spaces" between atoms, losing and gaining them. foward or backwards, the process is the same. there is no "flow"

Anyway, what is your experience/education out of interest?

Some cool stuff was worked on by Tesla and Einstein using the earth as a giant capacitor.

In my mind there is flow -I think we agree here just explain it differently. An atoms valence shell of good conductors easily lose and gain electrons. So in AC they essentially pass them back and forth -but even in AC circuits the electrons travel very far. So in 60 hertz AC (the stuff in your wall outlet [US]) an electron will travel in one direction for a 60th of a second. This means an electron will travel 5 million meters before changing direction (8,205.5 miles). Considering that Electrons travel at 300,000,000 meters per second.

For DC there is Electron flow, potential to lack of. Thats why all batteries are DC. So a fully charged battery has a Negative (abundance of electrons) and a Positive (lack of electrons) If you let all the electrons pass from the - to the + then you have a battery with no charge. You charge the battery by adding more electrons with a battery charger or through a charging circuit from your alternator/ generator.

My creds, ooohh I love bragging -I'm old school self taught. Did board level design and repair for the Calibration lab onboard the USS Abraham Lincoln Aircraft Carrier. I Specialized in Aircraft Radar and guidance systems. After the Navy I bacame Platinum certified Engineer for Fender (the Amp/ guitar co.) Ran Engineering for an Event Management company where I designed and built custom amps speakers and just about anything else you could imagine. true design where I did studies and whitepapers. I even wrote a couple books

Now I'm a Computer Security Engineer where I frequent places like the Pentagon and just about any other really secretive Government agency on a weekly basis.

To summ it all up I'm just a nerdy family guy now...

But just cause I'm a nerd doesn't mean I can't out bench anybody on this forum

[133bhp]

And here I was thinking, after pages of indepth theory/explanation, it was me educating you steve!

I've explained and explained in ever increasing detail, to counter objections and points which I either see as misisng the point or frankly maistaken. leaving me scartching my head, wondering where to go next?

So, for the sake of everyone's sanity, I think "enough is enough".

I hope some other readers have learnt something from all this? as frankly this has been a dissapointing waste of my time. Maybe we CAN agree - to not comment on each other posts in future? Life's too short etc.

[133bhp]

Originally Posted by chucks_net

Some cool stuff was worked on by Tesla and Einstein using the earth as a giant capacitor.

In my mind there is flow -I think we agree here just explain it differently. An atoms valence shell of good conductors easily lose and gain electrons. So in AC they essentially pass them back and forth -but even in AC circuits the electrons travel very far. So in 60 hertz AC (the stuff in your wall outlet [US]) an electron will travel in one direction for a 60th of a second. This means an electron will travel 5 million meters before changing direction (8,205.5 miles). Considering that Electrons travel at 300,000,000 meters per second.

For DC there is Electron flow, potential to lack of. Thats why all batteries are DC. So a fully charged battery has a Negative (abundance of electrons) and a Positive (lack of electrons) If you let all the electrons pass from the - to the + then you have a battery with no charge. You charge the battery by adding more electrons with a battery charger or through a charging circuit from your alternator/ generator.

My creds, ooohh I love bragging -I'm old school self taught. Did board level design and repair for the Calibration lab onboard the USS Abraham Lincoln Aircraft Carrier. I Specialized in Aircraft Radar and guidance systems. After the Navy I bacame Platinum certified Engineer for Fender (the Amp/ guitar co.) Ran Engineering for an Event Management company where I designed and built custom amps speakers and just about anything else you could imagine. true design where I did studies and whitepapers. I even wrote a couple books

Now I'm a Computer Security Engineer where I frequent places like the Pentagon and just about any other really secretive Government agency on a weekly basis.

To summ it all up I'm just a nerdy family guy now...

But just cause I'm a nerd doesn't mean I can't out bench anybody on this forum

Some Cool stuff Chuck. (thumbup)

I onec wrote a book, on how to read, didnt sell well!

You didnt say how much (and here's your oppitunity to show off! but liking to stya fit, think more impressed with the benching ablity though I tried once telling how, at a job interview, I can do 7min 2000 meters on the rowing machine, didnt help get the job though!- just kididng

Grown up around cars etc but I started out in electrical engineering, which is in effect pure maths at that point, which I hate. then 6 decimal place scientifc instruments. And Last 18 years, travelling abraod with surgical lasers. medical X ray and currently molcular engineering and celluar imaging, drug discovery etc.