Failed valve bucket tappets?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by rufer

And Wolfgang has seen and replaced numerous of such cracked (but not yet failed) buckets, all on the front exhaust cam.

That's really strange, I must have built getting on for 20 engines and had the cams out of numerous others and never once come accross a damaged/marked shim bucket on the TL

Do they forget to put the slippy stuff in your oil over there

[rufer]

It may be a German specific issue. They have highways without speed limit!
The oil remark is not so wrong. Zinc additives as example are forbidden since a very long time in oils in EU, where in the US it was still legal.

Greetings
Rufer

[Sam]

Originally Posted by rufer

It may be a German specific issue. They have highways without speed limit!
The oil remark is not so wrong. Zinc additives as example are forbidden since a very long time in oils in EU, where in the US it was still legal.

Greetings
Rufer

Maybe something in that, but I would expect the likes of Silkolene etc to have the same stuff in the can worldwide

[rufer]

Well, I don't want to turn this into an Oil thread. Just one example: You can't get Shell Rotella over here because it contains high levels of Zinc and Phosphorous that are forbidden since a very long time in EU.
Also note that Suzuki Germany once recommended their dealers to use Mineral Oil (no semi synthetic and no fully synthetic) for the TL.

But honestly I don't think it's an oil issue. If it was, it would affect both heads equally!

Greetings
Rufer

[The Ring-In]

I think there is a link between the configuration of the front exhaust and the failure. In my opinion this failure is most likely brought about by the under bucket shim working its way out of the retainer and slipping downwards. with the consequent fouling of everything from that point onward.
the front exhaust cam assembly is hanging out there whilst the rear cylinder the bits are upright and the shim would be more likely to stay in the retainer.
for a situation to arise where the shim might be able to leave the retainer, the spring would have to lose control of the valve assembly. this occurs when the valve spring reaches its natural frequency and loses many of its springing properties. this is not uncommon and occurs momentarily as engines a revved thru such critical engine periods. Problem is in some high rev applications such as long straights on a track or as suggested on autobahns. this critical period can occur for long enough for serious damage to occur.
If the shim were not the cause and it was the bucket just cracking up, then I still believe this would would be caused by the valve spring reaching a critical frequency and the bucket bashing itself to death on the cam lobe and valve shim.

[rufer]

Hmm, interesting post! That would imply that the valve springs are not perfectly suited for the TL engine, wouldn't it? A reputatad engine specialist (Motoren Thiel) once stated that "the TLS has wrong valve springs".

And you agree that under normal circumstances, the shim cannot fall out?! Under normal circumstances, this should be completely impossible regardless of the position as far as I understand.

A quick look into Ronayers fiche:
- There are two part numbers for TLS valve springs: 12920-02F00 and 12920-02F10. But only the later part number 12920-02F10 for the TLR.
- The retainers have been changed from 12931-02F00 to 12931-02F10. TLR fiche lists only the later part number 12931-02F10

Just checked my fiche and the TLS Valve springs and retainers have changed only in 2000, thus starting with TL1000SY. Afaik, the TLS wasn't imported to continental Europe after 1999, so we never got the upgraded valve springs and retainers!

Interesting indeed.

Greetings
Rufer

[The Ring-In]

I spent an hour yesterday measuring some tl springs on an accurate tester. I had measured some a month or teo back on a crude device and the results are not promising in the performance dept.
I will do a fourier analysis in the next day or so and post the results
cheers stu

[Faltenhals]

@ Rufer: Nearly all oils, no matter if here or in the non European outland (.), are containing Zinkalditiophosphate. A Good example is the Motul 300v, which contains a good load!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Many oil analysis to sight, listing of the ingredients and other parameters.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

Way interesting analysis of common bike oils!

I read a bunch of European MSDS Sheets for Motul, Shell and Silkolene oils, they all contain Zinkalditiophosphate.

[Steve TLS]

You said all oils contain Zinkalditiophosphate but the standards are different around the world as far as the amount that can be used. API probably being the slackest. European markets have their own standards.

That Sportrider was a good read, pity it's from 2003. I bet some of the blends have changed since then.

For example we don't get Rotella anymore, it's called Rimula, and it's a different blend to the US Rotella, with a lot less Zinc / Phosphorous. I can't find the data sheets I downloaded for each now. I found different blends for different markets.

edit:

Mobil saying that the maximum PPM is 800 for the current approval, 1600PPM for the Racing 4T and the VTwin, but you'll also notice the approval *SH & SG are no longer licenseable. They'll have their zinc / phosphorus levels dropped to meet new approvals if they want it used in later vehicles. (Post 2005?)

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...otor_Oils.aspx

The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.

The old outdated sport rider article:

Looking at the graphs, it's interesting to note a wide variation in additive amounts. For instance, examining phosphorous levels in the antiwear additive graph (remembering the API limitations) shows that two automotive oils contain approximately 1000 ppm (Valvoline and Castrol Syntec), while the Mobil 1 product contains 1391 ppm. The average of the motorcycle-specific oils is 1322 ppm; the automotive oils average 1157 ppm. The Maxima Maxum products have the highest levels overall, with almost three times the amount found in the lowest product tested. The products with the lowest levels are Silkolene Comp 4, Yamalube and Honda HP4.

Amsoil:

http://www.jrsynthetics.com/announcements.htm

Why should I protect my engine with AMSOIL?
Engine oils contain anti-wear additives and the most com-mon anti-wear chemistry is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP), which contains a combination of zinc and phos-phorus. In 2005, in an effort to guarantee catalytic con-verter performance in new vehicles, the American Petro-leum Institute (API) and International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) instituted API SM and IL-SAC GF-4 quality standards which reduced the maximum limit for phosphorus to 0.085% and 0.080% respectively. Both API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications also contain a minimum phosphorus content of .065% and .060%. Previously, API SL/ILSAC GF-3 oils were restricted to 0.10% phosphorus level, so a concern arose that oils con-taining lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide insuf-ficient protection in high pressure areas of flat tappets and camshaft lobes found in many older cars and high-performance engines.

[Faltenhals]

Ok Steve, maybe i was a bit fast with my speaking, but in the oilforums there are several analysis out of the United States with samples containing 1200ppm zink/phosphorous.

The Motul 300v 5 w 40 for cars for example was tested with nearly 1300 ppm from Blackstone labs.

I have to make further research, looks like that here in Europe we could have other blends in fact..

I have the MSDS sheets from the European Shell Advance Ultra 15 w 50 and the oil contains from 1-2% Zink Dialkyl Dithiophosphate.